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Why Isn't Seatwave Prosecuted For Ticket Touting? |
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#1 |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: London
Posts: 2,323
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Why Isn't Seatwave Prosecuted For Ticket Touting?
Killers at the Royal Albert Hall
Cheapest circle tickets £95 on Seatwave. Face value £35. And Seatwave "profit" to the tune of £32.78 if you buy those tickets. Why Isn't Seatwave Prosecuted For Ticket Touting? Email to trading standards on it's way. |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Middesbrough (via Manchester)
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They'll pay tax on it.
Touting is big business. Some of the big ticket sites *cou...ticketmaster...gh* actually own some touting sites There's quite a few sites which "tout" tickets and they get away with it. I agree that it should be made illegal. I've found Seatwave to be more expensive than eBay. |
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#3 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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ticket touting isn't illegal. it's of no concern to trading standards unless they break the law. they can sell £2 tickets for £2000 if they can find a buyer
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#4 |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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Its disgusting, but doubt it will ever become illegal....although it really should be. Real fans are missing out, due to selfish, greedy people charging ridiculous prices.
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#5 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 16,886
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Quote:
Its disgusting, but doubt it will ever become illegal....although it really should be. Real fans are missing out, due to selfish, greedy people charging ridiculous prices.
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#6 |
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 103
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I hate Ticketmaster. Their services charges can be absolutely disgusting. I'd support the tout on the street before I'd support Ticketmaster.
I try to buy from eBay. If you shop around and use common sense you can usually find trustworthy sellers who price their tickets within reason. |
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#7 |
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Join Date: Mar 2000
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it absolutely ridiculous that this is allowed to continue through a loophole in the law. touting is, AFAIK, illegal, but its dressed up in such a way as to be legal.
the crap they (and others) spout about doing people a favour by making tickets available for sold out events is a crock of shit, as they wouldn't sell out so fast if they weren't snapping up tickets in the first place. i see that aloud, hitherto one of the legit sites (along with TM and see) are now offering a similar service. i don't care how its dressed up, it it tantamount to touting, however you look at it. its the one thing i've ever written to my MP about, and did get a bunch of info from his office in westminster about how it was an issue that was being looked at, but assume nothing has come of it. Iain |
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#8 |
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Join Date: Mar 2000
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Quote:
Until there is a way of reselling tickets then it will not become illegal. The ticket companies sell tickets for concerts up to a year in advance and then provide no facility to get your money back if you can't attend.
Iain |
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#9 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 16,886
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Quote:
it absolutely ridiculous that this is allowed to continue through a loophole in the law. touting is, AFAIK, illegal, but its dressed up in such a way as to be legal.
the crap they (and others) spout about doing people a favour by making tickets available for sold out events is a crock of shit, as they wouldn't sell out so fast if they weren't snapping up tickets in the first place. i see that aloud, hitherto one of the legit sites (along with TM and see) are now offering a similar service. i don't care how its dressed up, it it tantamount to touting, however you look at it. its the one thing i've ever written to my MP about, and did get a bunch of info from his office in westminster about how it was an issue that was being looked at, but assume nothing has come of it. Iain |
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#10 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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Viagogo is just as bad. £35 tickets for Will's upcoming tour on there for £91. But what makes it worse is that as I understand it Viagogo have acquired the rights to sell the first five rows of most venues in his tour, making it virtually impossible for genuine fans to get good seats.
That is disgusting. |
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#11 |
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Join Date: Mar 2000
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Quote:
Touting is not illegal, never has been. Street trading, ie selling tickets outside a venue is illegal, but the actual reselling is perfectly legal.
the point is the same though - both cases are, to all intent and purpose, touting. but these websites are effectively operating through a loophole in the legislation. they might try to make out they're only offering tickets which were legitmately bought in good faith, and only subsequently found to be unable to be used. but let's face it - they're not kidding anyone. Iain |
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#12 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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Quote:
isn't the reselling of tickets outside a venue touting?
the point is the same though - both cases are, to all intent and purpose, touting. but these websites are effectively operating through a loophole in the legislation. they might try to make out they're only offering tickets which were legitmately bought in good faith, and only subsequently found to be unable to be used. but let's face it - they're not kidding anyone. Iain what is illegal is street trading without a permit thus selling anything on the streets without a permit is illegal, so it doesn't matter if you are selling bic lighters or concert tickets, if you don't have a permit, then you are breaking the law if you do have a traders permit then you can probably sell what you like, including concert tickets, but i imagine traders permits have certain restrictions, you probably have to declare what goods you will be selling, and what location you are selling them in, so you don't get 50 people with street trading permits trying to stand outside the same tube station selling t shirts or something. you may well be refused a traders permit to sell concert tickets, but the point really is that touting/reselling or whatever you want to call it isn't illegal for concert tickets. the only powers that the police have is to arrest or move touts for trading without a permit, and that's what they do at the O2 in london for example the promotors usually don't care, as they have sold the tickets and made thier money, likewise the ticket agencies, what you do with the ticket after you buy it is up to you, as long as the conditions of sale aren't broken and the venue management want to act upon it. so if you buy tickets from a tout, the venue normally won't care too much unless you are drunk or look like you are going to cause trouble i think the case may be different for tickets for sporting events, but i'm not into sport so don't know or care thus the websites selling tickets at inflated prices aren't illegal, and it's not illegal to sell the tickets on ebay either, it may be against the terms and conditions of the ticket, but it's not against the law so you can't be prosecuted for it regarding some of the official touting agencies online, some of the bigger ones get tickets direct from the promotors. they will give ticketmaster and other agencies the bulk of the tickets to sell for "normal" seats, and they will give the best tickets, such as first few rows, to other agencies to sell at an inflated price, and probably at shared profits or higher wholesale value. call it touting if you want, but it's not illegal, touting in itself is not illegal the reason the promotors would sell the best tickets this way is so they get more money for the best tickets obviously, but also so they can still declare the normal ticket prices at a lower price and so places like ticketmaster don't come under flack for selling tickets at crazy prices. also partly because after a certain time, if the tickets haven't been sold at the inflated prices they may then be sold at TM at normal price, which is what they will normally do for VIP ticket packages if they aren't snapped up at the bargain price of £500 for a ticket, 2 drinks and a couple of sausauge rolls with tour program. so that's how you get the best seats the day before the show at cheap prices, with the double bonus of pissing off the people sitting around you who paid daft money for their seats |
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#13 |
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Join Date: Mar 2000
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yes - i get all that, but again, to all intent and purpose, the law is simply an ass, and such sites are only able to operate because of that.
if i sell a ticket outside a venue, for a friend who can't go, and only take the face value of the ticket, then i'm breaking the law. but if i get my permit, set up a website, and go around buying up tickets for events with the premeditated intention of then charging above and beyond (by quite some margin) the original face value of that ticket, then i'm operating a perfectly legitimate business. however that has come about, it is clearly a mockery of existing legislation. Iain |
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#14 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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Quote:
yes - i get all that, but again, to all intent and purpose, the law is simply an ass, and such sites are only able to operate because of that.
if i sell a ticket outside a venue, for a friend who can't go, and only take the face value of the ticket, then i'm breaking the law. but if i get my permit, set up a website, and go around buying up tickets for events with the premeditated intention of then charging above and beyond (by quite some margin) the original face value of that ticket, then i'm operating a perfectly legitimate business. however that has come about, it is clearly a mockery of existing legislation. Iain usually the venue and police will turn a blind eye to normal punters trying to sell a spare ticket for face value, but they can't allow dozens of people to stand outside doing this for a number of reasons, such as blocking the passage, but also because it would then make it harder to spot real touts with multiple tickets if you set up a website selling tickets you don't need any licence at all, it's just like any other business, if you were to sell t shirts or cds. going back to the first paragraph, your busines would only exist as long as you could obtain a supply of tickets, make a profit and cover costs. it's not quite as simple as it sounds, which is why these kind of agencies don't last too long and go bust, and why the bigger agencies are still around, as the trod on the competition if you do have a spare ticket to sell, you can always advertise it online and hand over in person, meet at a cafe or pub near the venue, so you aren't on the street, and you usually won't get a problem that way. you can usually find people who want spare tickets on the artists fansites and forums |
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#15 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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Quote:
Viagogo is just as bad. £35 tickets for Will's upcoming tour on there for £91. But what makes it worse is that as I understand it Viagogo have acquired the rights to sell the first five rows of most venues in his tour, making it virtually impossible for genuine fans to get good seats.
That is disgusting. regarding the selling of the first few rows at a higher price, it's just market forces at work artists and promotors know that these are usually the most desired seats, and they know that people are prepared to pay a premium price for them, so rather than sell the seats at the front for the same price as those umpteen rows back, or even right at the back, and then give the opportunity to touts or fans to resell them at a higher price and keep the profit, they got wise to this and now sell them at a higher price themselves so they get the profit instead of someone else who has nothing to do with the show. in some way it means that fans who really want the best seats and are prepared to pay for them can get them without resorting to unofficial touts and agencies. it's common at all sorts of events for seats closer to the front to cost more than those at the back, for example at the O2 the floor tickets will be one price, lower tier a bit cheaper, and uppier tear a bit less. in theatres, the seats on the floor are the most expensive, and upstairs a bit cheaper. they've just taken things a bit further so the very best seats at the front are being sold for closer to what the real value of the ticket is for you can think about it this way, if all tickets are £35 on the floor, and you are 30 rows back, your seat isn't as good a view as front row, but you have paid the same price as front row. if you think about this in reverse, your seat isn't as good and isn't worth as much as the front row seat, so maybe you should have paid less for the seat at the back than the folk at the front? of course it doesn't work that way as more people have further back seats, and the name of the game is to sell each seat for as much as you realistically can, whilst trying to sell out the venue, so the obvious thing to do is sell your prime seats for a higher price, just like a butcher sells the best parts of the cow for higher prices than he will sell the tail for. think of concert promoters as butchers, and the artist as the lamb to the slaughter, and that's the best way to sum up the music business |
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#16 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 15,748
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Why then don't they price the tickets for concerts in the same way as theatre tickets? Front stalls and circle the highest prices and the back stalls, circle and balcony a lower price? Seems logical to me.
The things about Seatwave and Viagogo is that the extra money isn't going to the artist, the promoter or the venue but in some greedy person's pocket! |
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#17 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 16,886
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Quote:
isn't the reselling of tickets outside a venue touting?
the point is the same though - both cases are, to all intent and purpose, touting. but these websites are effectively operating through a loophole in the legislation. they might try to make out they're only offering tickets which were legitmately bought in good faith, and only subsequently found to be unable to be used. but let's face it - they're not kidding anyone. Iain |
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#18 |
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Guest
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 62,990
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selling tickets online at their face value, to people who want to go to the concerts should be legal.
being able to buy up large numbers of tickets at face value, with the sole intention limiting supply, and artificially driving up the price, and reselling them on at vastly inflated prices really shouldn't be legal though. at least not for any reason i can think of. Iain |
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#19 |
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 62,990
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it doesn't make it impossible for geniune fans to get good seats, they just have to pay the going rate if they want them, and they can get them from an established company
regarding the selling of the first few rows at a higher price, it's just market forces at work artists and promotors know that these are usually the most desired seats, and they know that people are prepared to pay a premium price for them, so rather than sell the seats at the front for the same price as those umpteen rows back, or even right at the back, and then give the opportunity to touts or fans to resell them at a higher price and keep the profit, they got wise to this and now sell them at a higher price themselves so they get the profit instead of someone else who has nothing to do with the show. in some way it means that fans who really want the best seats and are prepared to pay for them can get them without resorting to unofficial touts and agencies. it's common at all sorts of events for seats closer to the front to cost more than those at the back, for example at the O2 the floor tickets will be one price, lower tier a bit cheaper, and uppier tear a bit less. in theatres, the seats on the floor are the most expensive, and upstairs a bit cheaper. they've just taken things a bit further so the very best seats at the front are being sold for closer to what the real value of the ticket is for you can think about it this way, if all tickets are £35 on the floor, and you are 30 rows back, your seat isn't as good a view as front row, but you have paid the same price as front row. if you think about this in reverse, your seat isn't as good and isn't worth as much as the front row seat, so maybe you should have paid less for the seat at the back than the folk at the front? of course it doesn't work that way as more people have further back seats, and the name of the game is to sell each seat for as much as you realistically can, whilst trying to sell out the venue, so the obvious thing to do is sell your prime seats for a higher price, just like a butcher sells the best parts of the cow for higher prices than he will sell the tail for. think of concert promoters as butchers, and the artist as the lamb to the slaughter, and that's the best way to sum up the music business i would dispute that the going rate for a decent seat at a killers concert is £250. i'd say its an artifically high rate resulting from tickets being taken out of the regular market place, limiting supply and so driving up the price. Iain |
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#20 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Quote:
Why then don't they price the tickets for concerts in the same way as theatre tickets? Front stalls and circle the highest prices and the back stalls, circle and balcony a lower price? Seems logical to me.
The things about Seatwave and Viagogo is that the extra money isn't going to the artist, the promoter or the venue but in some greedy person's pocket! i'm not sure about seatwave or viagogo in particular, but with some of these agencies the extra cut is going to the promotor and sometimes the artist. it depends on the deal. sometimes the artist is paid a fixed fee for the gig, regardless of the number of tickets sold, and it's then up to the promotor to make that money back, plus cover all other costs, such as advertising, venue hire, pa hire, hotels, travel, you name it, and make a profit. some artists have openly admitted or been proven to have involvement in this practice and make a direct profit from this way of selling tickets. it's only really the smaller touts that pocket the profits themselves, but like any other business, sometimes they make a profit on a gig, and sometimes they lose out if no-one buys tickets from them at a profit, such as if extra tickets go onsale, or shows get cancelled or rescheduled or extra shows added the problem isn't just the touts, it's the promotors, ticket selling agencies, and the artists. some promotors staff even sell tickets on fleabay themselves when shows are sold out. that's why fleabay was flooded with tickets for a particular set of shows coming up soon |
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#21 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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the going rate should be the face value of the ticket, not the price that the wealthiest can happen to afford / be prepared to pay.
i would dispute that the going rate for a decent seat at a killers concert is £250. i'd say its an artifically high rate resulting from tickets being taken out of the regular market place, limiting supply and so driving up the price. Iain what the touts do offer however is the chance to see gigs that are sold out. you may have to pay extra to do so, but you then have the choice. if touting was illegal you wouldn't have that opportunity, so if the measures you suggested were illegal, you would have little to no chance of seeing your favourite band if it sold out, and with many popular shows selling out in 15 minutes of going on sale, if you snooze you loose, and that's it as much as i'd hate to give a tout more than face value, if it was between that and missing my favourite artist, i know what i would choose, and many others would do the same, otherwise there would be no demand for the touts part of the problem is promoters choosing to put bands on in smaller venues so they have a sold out tour, rather than in bigger venues that aren't sold out, so the next time they play they can play a bigger venue and sell that out, so they go from club to theatre to arena to stadium, to outdoor venue as the years progress. if a tour doesn't sell out quickly, the fans won't rush in the same way to snap up tickets the next time |
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#22 |
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,928
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Its disgusting, but doubt it will ever become illegal....although it really should be. Real fans are missing out, due to selfish, greedy people charging ridiculous prices.
Supermarkets buy food for pennies and sell it for several pounds, that's how it works I'm sure same goes for anything else |
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#23 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 16,886
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Quote:
selling tickets online at their face value, to people who want to go to the concerts should be legal.
being able to buy up large numbers of tickets at face value, with the sole intention limiting supply, and artificially driving up the price, and reselling them on at vastly inflated prices really shouldn't be legal though. at least not for any reason i can think of. Iain |
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#24 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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Why should it be illegal though? Is the resale of any other scarce commodities illegal?
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#25 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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Some people don't go online for reasons other than not "making the effort". Not everyone has the Internet!
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