[James Welsh]

Hi everyone,

We'll be talking to Richard Davidson-Houston, Channel 4's head of online products, a little later in the week about upcoming developments at 4oD.

If you've got any questions about 4oD please feel free to post them here and we'll try to ask as many as we can.

Thanks!

[DJGM]

Is 4OD ditching the WMV downloads? If so, how do I stream the programs to my XBox360
like I can with the WMV versions of programs available to download from BBC iPlayer?

[Wayne Moule]

Will 4OD be going HD this year?

[Insaneperson]

Will channel 4's current financial decision have an effect on 4od?

[Laggy]

Any plans to take 4od to mobile platforms, ala BBC iPlayer on iPhone etc.

[Roke]

Why have Channel 4's customer support staff continued to ignore requests to fix the 4oD Catch Up service?

Over the last month I have sent several emails asking why I only get error messages when I try to view programmes using the 4oD Catch Up website, but as yet there seems to have been no effort to fix the problem.

In the meantime, I have been able to use get_iplayer to download those programmes. Can I assume that Channel 4 would prefer us to use get_iplayer rather than their website?

[Roke]

On a related note, for the benefit of those asking about mobile platforms, I can recommend get_iplayer as an excellent means of downloading 4oD Catch Up content in a format that can then be converted (I use ffmpeg for conversion to Creative Zen) to an appropriate format for a mobile device. The wife has been very pleased to watch many episodes of Time Team on her Creative Zen.

[81westley]

Will there be any programmes on 4oD available for users outside the UK and Ireland?

[Gemz87uk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJGM

Is 4OD ditching the WMV downloads? If so, how do I stream the programs to my XBox360
like I can with the WMV versions of programs available to download from BBC iPlayer?

It's already gone

[James Welsh]

Thanks for the questions, everyone; will post back when our interview goes up (probably early next week).

James

[James Welsh]

Hi everyone,

Check out Richard's answers here:

4oD boss "sees logic" in metered broadband

C4 unsure about Canvas participation

Security concerns block 4oD on iPhone

High def 4oD difficult to justify

No more WMV downloads from 4oD

Thanks for your questions. Hopefully we can do more forum-based Q&As like this with people in the industry in the future!

[Roke]

No answer to my question about their customer support staff then? Nor about the implication that they would prefer people to use get_iplayer (as that works when their website does not).

[The Phazer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roke

Nor about the implication that they would prefer people to use get_iplayer (as that works when their website does not).

I'm fairly sure use of get_iplayer would be covered by the fact it's illegal (and indeed quite possibly a criminal offense to distribute in the UK with RMTPe ripping built in that would be required for Channel 4's content).

Phazer

[Roke]

As far as I can tell, get_iplayer does not include any code to implement the RTMPE protocol (not sure where you got the lower case e from), but rather it includes a facility to specify protocol software. I'm also not sure that the word "ripping" (nor any of the other loaded terminology) is relevant to a protocol that has been publicly documented.

As for the rtmpdump software that implements RTMPE, whilst some strange US laws have been used to limit its distribution there, that was something that happened under US law, not under UK law.

Regardless of any of this, it is still the case that get_iplayer works, whilst the 4oD website does not (at least that is the case for me). And the question was still not even addressed in any of the answers given.

[davidsonhouston]

Hello Roke. The interviewer didn't ask me your question but I found it here.

What seems to be the problem with the service?

Most common problems are:

1) You don't have Flash 10 installed (though I think you probably do)

2) You're using a proxy server. This seems intermittently to cause a problem.

3) Your IP address looks to us as though it's ex-UK.

Does get_iplayer still work for pinching 4oD content? On Linuxcentre, it says support for 4oD has been dropped.

Richard

[Digital.Diablo]

I find Channel 4's approach very frustraiting, but one which doesn't surprise me in the least. This constant paranoia within the Media world around protecting copyright at all cost means that it restricts visibility of their assets, the programs they hold, to the widest possible audience. Now, I'm pretty sure that this isn't all Channel 4's fault, but the production companies so keen to (fairly) get a slice of the pie.

I personally have used get_iplayer to view programming content from both the BBC and ITV, and whilst almost certainly illegal, I believe that I'm taking a 'fair-use' approach, by not sharing these with others & ensuring that they're deleted after the specified period of time, whilst still being able to view the programmes on my technology of choice at the time, be it Linux, an Xbox or my PDA. Certainly in the case of Auntie Beeb, I've discovered programmes (particularly on BBC4) that I would NEVER in a million years of watched simply because I didn't think that channel had anything of relevance to me. So in a way, it has helped me get better value from my licence fee by expanding my viewing (and listening opportunities).

I used 4oD once, but found it such a pain in the butt that I've not revisited since. If I want to watch a Channel 4 programme, I'll record it off the telly (most programs come round at least once every 12 months) and these days they're unlikely to produce of reasonable quality something that doesn't get reshown regularly, such that Id be forced to go online and illegally source it. I've got no need to even consider that with Auntie Beeb as its all on the iPlayer anyway.

With regard to the film4 channels, I can see them being keen to protect their DVD sales, but by time time they reach FilmFour, they've probably sold as many cinema tickets and the majority of DVD's they're going to sell. IMHO They'd be better off selling space to advertisers at the start of the film based on the number of downloads, rather than trying to wring every last penny from the DVD sales.

As I see it, broadcasters and content producers need to either take the approach of making what I call fair usage (see above) easier, or be far more agile in offering content on multiple platforms so that people dont need to take an angle grinder to the content protection just to be able to watch a film or listen to a radio program. If you make it too difficult, people won't bother and they'll go off and do something else, and you'll loose not only the opportunity to offer them that programme, but potentially lose a viewer for a later series that they may have discovered and chosen to watch 'live', driving your audience share (and therefore advertising revenue) down.

[Roke]

Hello Richard

Thanks for replying. It is none of the three reasons you mention. My IP address is definitely UK (I am in the UK, and my ISP is a UK ISP), I have the latest version of Flash player (10,0,22,87), and whilst I usually use a proxy server based within my home network (so, using the same internet connection), the website still does not work if I use a direct connection.

In spite of this, the 4oD customer support staff, once they have requested some initial information (IP address, Flash player version, browser, and so forth) which I have then supplied, have not provided any assistance in fixing this problem at all, leaving me no option but to use get_iplayer (which works fine).

Whilst get_iplayer are no longer updating support for 4oD, the version of the plugin for 4oD can still be found (thanks to subversion), as can rtmpdump (since it was taken down from SourceForge, it has appeared in plenty of places).

[davidsonhouston]

Roke -

Can you explain what happens when you try to use the service? Do the ads play? What's the error message? Or do you get the same programme regardless of what you choose to watch?

[The Phazer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roke

As far as I can tell, get_iplayer does not include any code to implement the RTMPE protocol (not sure where you got the lower case e from), but rather it includes a facility to specify protocol software. I'm also not sure that the word "ripping" (nor any of the other loaded terminology) is relevant to a protocol that has been publicly documented.

get_iplayer included RTMPdump when it was able to rip Channel 4 streams - and RTMPdump is illegal to distribute within the UK.

Quote:

As for the rtmpdump software that implements RTMPE, whilst some strange US laws have been used to limit its distribution there, that was something that happened under US law, not under UK law.

The UK has similar laws in this area - Sections 296, 296ZA and 296ZB of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 as modified by SI 2498 the Copyright and Related Rights Regulations 2003.

Phazer

[Roke]

Richard

Sorry about the delay, just been out for the day with the wife. When I try to access 4oD with my browser, at the point where I try to play a programme (Time Team in this case), the area where the programme should play turns black, and contains the text "An error has occurred trying to play the chosen item". Meanwhile, get_iplayer still downloads the programme just fine.

[Roke]

Phazer

You said "get_iplayer included RTMPdump", but as far as I can tell rtmpdump has never been included with get_iplayer, although get_iplayer has been included with rtmpdump.

In addition, clearly rtmpdump does not infringe any copyright, the notice issued to Sourceforge related to the supposition that rtmpdump enabled infringement of copyright. However, as far as I understand it, the issue of such a notice does not mean that anything has been proven in court. In fact, I would have thought that the idea that a piece of software that communicates using a publicly documented protocol could be used to infringe copyright would mean that any browser that works with the 4oD website (although it seems that my browser installation does not) would be in a similar position.

Anyway, there seems to be plenty of discussion of these issues around, I've only looked briefly (but, at least I did get as far as finding that rtmpdump has never been included with get_iplayer), so I can't really sustain any intricate legal arguments.

[Roke]

Richard

A little further investigation (using "Live HTTP Headers" plugin to Firefox) show that when a programme is clicked in the browser, an HTTP request is sent to www.channel4.com for something along the lines of "services/catchup-availability/asset-info" which comes back with "404 Not Found". I wonder if this is related to the problem.

[The Phazer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roke

Phazer

You said "get_iplayer included RTMPdump", but as far as I can tell rtmpdump has never been included with get_iplayer, although get_iplayer has been included with rtmpdump.

It was hosted on the same server with the link underneath, and at the time was the only stream ripper that would work with the programme.

Quote:

In addition, clearly rtmpdump does not infringe any copyright, the notice issued to Sourceforge related to the supposition that rtmpdump enabled infringement of copyright. However, as far as I understand it, the issue of such a notice does not mean that anything has been proven in court.

Have you read the bit of law I cited earlier?

It is very clear on the UK legal position.

Quote:

In fact, I would have thought that the idea that a piece of software that communicates using a publicly documented protocol could be used to infringe copyright would mean that any browser that works with the 4oD website (although it seems that my browser installation does not) would be in a similar position.

RTMPe isn't a publically documented protocol. RTMP is.

No browser includes a facility to unlawfully copy encrypted content without extra installation.

Phazer

Phazer

[Skeet Ulrich]

Tell him to take a look at iPlayer with regards to organising Channel 4's content.

At the moment 4OD is just horrible to navigate.

[DJGM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemz87uk

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJGM

Is 4OD ditching the WMV downloads? If so, how do I stream the
programs to my XBox360 like I can with the WMV versions of
programs available to download from BBC iPlayer?

It's already gone

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Welsh

Hi everyone,

Check out Richard's answers here:

4oD boss "sees logic" in metered broadband
C4 unsure about Canvas participation
Security concerns block 4oD on iPhone
High def 4oD difficult to justify

No more WMV downloads from 4oD

Oh well ... I'll have to download Channel 4 shows from unofficial, unauthorised sources from now on.
I'd rather not have to do that, but by ditching the legal WMV downloads, C4 have forced my hand.