Ok, so somehow the 10th Doctor has got to spend a lot of time with River song before he regenerates... it's seriously not likely that we'll ever see that, but where could it fit in? At first I assumed between the specials etc... but then a random idea came up- what if it isn't 10 River knows and loves, but 10.5?? Do you reckon it could be possible? I mean, in a deleted scene for the last ep of series 4, 10 does give rose and 10.5 a bit of the TARDIS to grow... Perhaps after rose is gone etc, 10.5 moves on? River did say that 10 looked hell of a young when she saw him...

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

That is a possibility.
Doesn't River Song say that only 10's eyes look younger than the man she knew. I took that to mean she knew him in any incarnation. Yes , the Doctors eyes sometimes change colour with each regeneration but perhaps she had some sort of sixth sense feeling of who he was. A bit like when the Doctor sensed other Time Lords presence in the classic series.

Nah if she had some sort of "all incarnations" sense so she just knows it's him ...we would have got the "he's not met me yet" right away as she explained who she was to Ten ... And every incarnation is their own man-their own personality ...she would not have been so comfortable so instantly with a incarnation she had just met i'd have thought.

Add to that the Colin Murray 5live interview where David seemed to pretty much give away that we see her in the specials ...Colin commented on David's face when asked about her ..

TorchyTD's idea is interesting..
Things never worked out with Rose.. and her Doctor catches up with Ten in the specials-where River Song is first seen as Doctor2's companion..

Or maybe Rose is connected to River Song somehow -I do hope we are told about River anyway.

What confuses me is the comment about him looking younger. I think she states his eyes don't look as old as when she knew him before. If it's his whole physical appearance , then will we see 10 as an old man again , with David donning the wrinkly make up once more. Possibly not if you consider the scenes filmed with Billie where he was seen to be staggering. Won't know for sure but I'd have thought that was pretty close to his regeneration.

also the fact she thinks he knows her rules out an older 10.5 being her Doctor.

I still have big doubts that filming is as seems -I can't believe the bbc and RTD would film a Tenth Doctor death scene in public for it to be leaked out of all context and storyline all over the place.Nah it's not as it seems imo ..

I think River's Doctor might look very like Ten -(rather than a old man) -it took River several minutes to spot something was different so i'm thinking her Doctor can't be that much older maybe ..

have to agree with you there. I'd be very surpirsed if that is part of the 'death' scene. I'd have thought it would be being kept firmly under wraps.

Just a reminder SITL on bbc3 tonight 7pm-i'm looking forward to watching again .

I don't necessarily think her comment about 10 being older when she knew him means that he was really old with and elderly appreance. She could mean older as in experience.

I thought they were trapped in the alternate universe and that this had now, most definitely this time, been sealed, so I can't see how River Song gets it on with 10.5.

Not possible.

River knew about Regeneration and that the Doctor could do so.

Given that the Doctor rarely talks about regeneration unless it's about to happen to him it's likely that River has witnessed at least one.

10.5 of course can't regenerate, so unless for some reason he claimed to River that he could she would have no idea about regeneration nor expect that 10.5 could do so.






While it's clear* that River did know Doc#10 it may only have been for a few encounters (the ones she mentions from the diary plus a few more maybe) her "main" Doctor (and maybe even the Doctor she first meets) could be Doc#11 or higher.

Some people are speculating that since we have not been told her Characters name Karen Gillan is in fact a young River Song.

Personally I can't see it happening but it is curious why we weren't told a name.

Was there a gap between Freema being announced as the companion and her character name being announced (pretty sure we were told Billie was playing Rose Tyler straight away), I can't recall?

If there was a gap then this is just following form but if this is the first time they've done this they must have a reason to keep the name unknown.


*Even if what was shown/said on screen is not enough to convince some people SM himself has said she had met Doc#10 previously.

Maybe they just haven't got a name for her yet? Or it will be revealed with the Press Release and photos of Matt in his Doctor outfit.

This is an interesting watch and listen in the context of the thread. It's a round table discussion with the Moff at a comic con in the States last August. Around about 26mins in , he's asked about River and states that she's met more than one incarnation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnR1CZbvhEM

Irony is, even though Moff states she met more than one incarnation, fans will still debate whether 10 was her Doctor or not.

Thinking about it, I like the mystery. It is quite possible for River Song to have known a future incarnation, but know what the Doctor looked like during his 10th. Her future Doctor must have know about the events of SITL and FOTD as they had happend in his past. He obviously didn't tell her what would happen to her, but having the knowledge that she would 'die' in the past could possibly explain why he was clearly so emotionally attached to her. He could even have shown her an image of his 10th incarnation.

It was also a reminder that the Doctor is a time traveller and things don't necessarily happen to him in the same order as they do to humans. Moff touched on this with Sally Sparrow in Blink and the classic series did with stories like Battlefield.

Thats exactly what I had presumed might have happened...after all he had told her some deep secret (maybe his name) so I presume his old face wouldnt have been a problem so he might have got out a few pics for her to identify him.

You're assuming that Rose's Doctor can't regenerate though -the last time we seen Doctor2 was just hours after he evolved-he could easily have found out he was a full timelord/regeneration etc in the time since.

As I said earlier in this thread -about River i'm just going by the evidence we have -Colin Murray definatly reacted to David's face when asked about her ...that added to SITL/FOTD being SM's last story for David Tennant,River's instant affection and acceptance of Ten,her face at the name Donna Noble..add FOTD's unsatisfying feel at the end and that she spoke of no other Doctors..it's just adding up to me that she might be significant in the specials.

and of course I could be wrong .. we shall see

Oh, I just didn't warm to River Song at all and I would be really disappointed to see her in the specials. I'll trust she adds to the story though.

The scenario Torchy suggests would mean double DT Dawn -can't be bad if it happens .

I like the mystery too. I don't mind if Ten meets River in the specials or not - I don't mind it being an untold story. I did have one thought, though - might be kind of confused about this due to wibbly-wobbly etc...

River seemed to expect Ten to recognise her, so surely she must either have met Ten or know she is going to meet Ten in that incarnation... Say Eleven was the current incarnation when she firsts meets the Doctor in her personal timeline and he shows her a picture of Ten. If she later meets Ten for the first time, she wouldn't expect him to know her as he is an earlier incarnation of "her" Doctor (Eleven) so would have no memory of her. That made me think that in her personal timeline, she has met Ten at least once (even if that were in the future of the Doctor's personal timeline at the point of SITL/FOTD...)

OK, none of that makes the sense it does in my head! Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey makes my brain spin...

Please feel free to set me straight!

True, double DT is never a bad thing! River Song though, she's a different kettle of fish. SITL FOTD were two of my least favourite eps of series 4 and I just didn't warm to RS at all. I'm not at all interested in her as a character - I guess SM did add her for a reason but I was really hoping we wouldn't see her again until he took over.

Yes I agree with all that....and I can imagine him showing the picture of his tenth self....because lets face it.....its one incarnation that he is quite vain of

I feel that Moff is adding the Tenth Doctor as a way of saying that she has met him now....rather had met him before....and maybe she has....but she definitely has met more than one incarnation....she knows about regenerations, as someone said, he never mentions it untill it is about to happen....

Also he knows that it was his tenth self that she meets the day she dies, just like he gave her sonic, and told her about Donna....chances are he showed her how he looked too

The one thing that I keep dwelling on regarding River Song, is her reaction to Donna. At the time, I thought it would be explained by the end of series 4 but I'm not sure it was because how would she have known about what happened to Donna at the end of series 4. Yeh the Dr could have told her but her reaction suggested something bigger is going to happen to Donna, maybe in the specials.

Do you see what I'm saying? I just didn't take what RS said about Donna as referring to her losing her memories and a timelord metacrisis and all that.

I don't think Donna's story is quite over yet, and going by River Song's reaction to her I can't help but feel things won't end well for her. It's been mentioned that the final is a tear jerker, but what if those tears aren't for the Doctor?

Obviously she is gonna meet the 11th Doctor first and then at a future date she will meet the 10th Doctor in Silence in library which we have already seen.