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HDMI cables |
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#26 |
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Worcester
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I'll spend the money on a few bottle of bourbon instead. My loss.
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#27 |
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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You only need to be able to distinguish between either side of a threshold though, so you have one massive range of signal representing a one or a zero.
I can afford a £100 HDMI cable, but when it's the same as a £3 I'll spend the money on a few bottle of bourbon instead. My loss. I was just trying to make the point that if I could afford it I wouldn't buy a £15,000 projector and connect it to a £10,000 media system with a £3 cable! I'd want to ensure I've got the best out of my system by reducing the chance of errors to a minimum. Would that make me a 'banker' with more money than sense? I think not. |
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#28 |
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 54
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Yes, I know, I was just trying to get a point across to those who don't understand electronics. There appear to be too many people who just dismiss things out of hand because they don't understand it. Cable length, resistance, capacitance, shielding, connector fit/tightness, connector oxidisation can all blur the threshold causing errors. More often than not these errors will be automatically corrected or compensated for and you'll never notice them.
I was just trying to make the point that if I could afford it I wouldn't buy a £15,000 projector and connect it to a £10,000 media system with a £3 cable! I'd want to ensure I've got the best out of my system by reducing the chance of errors to a minimum. Would that make me a 'banker' with more money than sense? I think not. |
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#29 |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
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I can understand analogue things making a difference - eg speaker cables, turntable pickups, even quality of plugs/socket, but i struggle to with digital cables
as already said, its either 1s or 0s in the cables and there's oversampling and integrity checks to make sure everything works - anyway I found a Tesco HDMI PS3 cable (gold-plated stuff) for 4.99 or 7.99 (something like) which is great. Not tried the cheaper version that cam with my foxsat receiver, so not sure if that would be different. Now I do want a HDMI splitter, and I a can see that price here WOULD make a difference, cause I presume theres some circuitry going on. at some point I just feel, you start paying increasing amounts for very small increases in performance. so a £1000 Hi-Fi amp is better than £200 amp, but the cheaper one is still good. I can hear a difference between £5 headphones and £20 ones, but can anyone tell the difference between £20 headphones and £80 headphones. |
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#30 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: North Derbyshire
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I was just trying to make the point that if I could afford it I wouldn't buy a £15,000 projector and connect it to a £10,000 media system with a £3 cable! I'd want to ensure I've got the best out of my system by reducing the chance of errors to a minimum. Would that make me a 'banker' with more money than sense? I think not.
The ONLY way to decide is blind tests, and NONE of these overly priced HDMI cables have ever passed blind tests which show they give any improvement at all. The more expensive the cable, the higher (FAR higher) the profit margin - on a £5 cable the retailer might make £1 profit, on a £50 cable he might make £40 profit. Profit margins on expensive cables are HUGE, which is why Comet etc. try and sell you an expensive cable. |
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#31 |
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 957
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Quote:
at some point I just feel, you start paying increasing amounts for very small increases in performance.
so a £1000 Hi-Fi amp is better than £200 amp, but the cheaper one is still good. WRT HDMI cables, after having a couple of cheap ones fail on me after a few changes to my system I decided it might actually be worth spending a little more and getting better made cables. Quote:
The ONLY way to decide is blind tests, and NONE of these overly priced HDMI cables have ever passed blind tests which show they give any improvement at all.
Are you really saying that you've never had a cable fail in any way whatsoever? |
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#32 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,556
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I can hear a difference between £5 headphones and £20 ones, but can anyone tell the difference between £20 headphones and £80 headphones. That goes for headphones, TVs, hi fi etc and even things like cars. |
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#33 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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LOL, that old blind-test chestnut. Probably performed in a screened lab with short cable runs and over a short period of time - no you'll not see any difference. But try it in a modern home with all sorts of RF noise around (Wi-Fi/GSM/Mopeds/Homeplugs etc.) with dust and dirt, variable hot cold temperature cycles, maybe longer cable runs, the occasional re-configuration (i.e. a certain amount of plugging/unplugging) of systems and lastly a reasonable dose of time to let the dirt and oxidisation get in, you might get different results. But probably not anyway, it's quite likely that stupidly expensive leads are more troublesome in that respect anyway, Monster cables in particular are known for causing damge to sets they are used with (too big and too heavy). Basically your opinion seems to be that while they don't give any performance advantage (as you've just agreed) the higher price 'should' make them more reliable and longer lasting. There's also nothing whatsoever to stop you doing blind testing in a home environment, and that would show no differences either. Quote:
Are you really saying that you've never had a cable fail in any way whatsoever? I would say don't buy the absolutely cheapest ones you can find, they are usually cheap for good reason - but at £5 for a SCART lead, or £10 for an HDMI lead, you're probably as good as anything else, particularly the HDMI lead. |
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#34 |
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 957
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But probably not anyway, it's quite likely that stupidly expensive leads are more troublesome in that respect anyway, Monster cables in particular are known for causing damge to sets they are used with (too big and too heavy).
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Basically your opinion seems to be that while they don't give any performance advantage (as you've just agreed) the higher price 'should' make them more reliable and longer lasting.
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#35 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,556
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They will also survive home environments longer.
Longevity shouldnt come into it. HDMI cables will last until they are replaced just like scart cables did. |
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#36 |
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 1,233
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Nope, I did not agree. Better cables in general will cost more and will eliminate RFI better (hence less grain/noise if RFI is tipping bits over the digital cliff). They will also survive home environments longer.
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#37 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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So what you're saying is, if RFI doesn't affect anything then a £3.00 cable is good enough?
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#38 |
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants (New Forest)
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.....There's also nothing whatsoever to stop you doing blind testing in a home environment, and that would show no differences either. ....
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#39 |
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,330
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There's something that tickles my laughter buds about blind testing something to do with a visual medium.
![]() I personally use a cheepo HDMI lead from Asda. no problems whatsoever.What does interest me is an HDMI switchbox as I do not have enough inputs on my TV. Anybody any suggestions
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#40 |
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Redditch Worcs
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Thanks, I missed that one. Brilliant
I personally use a cheepo HDMI lead from Asda. no problems whatsoever.What does interest me is an HDMI switchbox as I do not have enough inputs on my TV. Anybody any suggestions ![]() http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/3-WAY-hub-spli...3A1%7C294%3A50 It remembers the last used or switched on input, but does have a button to manually select inputs |
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#41 |
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 957
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Exactly and only a moron would go out and spend £80 on a cable instead of trying a £3 cable 1st on a minute chance there will be interference.
The biggest mistake people make when looking at HDMI is in understanding the way it will fail if there is interference. I think DSat and DTT have given a lot of people the wrong idea about the effects of interference on digital data transfers. On DSat and DTT the data is transferred compressed and hence data corruption causes large noticeable artefacts. The same is NOT true with HDMI. HDMI transmits the data in full without any compression so interference will only manifest as individual pixel errors (maybe just a few in a million). For example this could just mean a few pixels having a lower/higher red channel value than they should - most people probably wouldn't notice and would be quite happy. Of course if the interference is too bad the clock sync will be lost and you'll lose the picture totally. HDMI also doesn't work like your PC network, in an Ethernet (wired or wireless) the receiver of the data is able to request retransmission of corrupt data, HDMI has no such capability so the receiver has to make the best of what it gets. Nigel mentioned blind testing and this is probably a good idea when trying various cables to find one you are happy with, after all, if you are happy what else matters? What I would like to see though is more technical testing of the various cables. For example wrap the cables around a couple of active Wi-Fi hubs/mobile phones and determine the data error rate of the various types of cable in that situation. To date I have seen nothing of the sort, only subjective testing. To return to my original point, if I was spending thousands on a system, I'd want to ensure I've got the best picture possible. Lacking any technical data on the performance of the various cables (since there doesn't appear to be any available) I'd choose the one that sounds like it has the best chance of delivering the data as near perfectly as possible - regardless of the cost. Lastly, with regards to the, admittedly, ridiculously overpriced mains lead mentioned, my point is similar. If you have gone to the effort of eliminating RFI as much as possible from your very expensive media system does it not seem daft to stick to standard unshielded two core flex which WILL re-introduce RFI to your WHOLE system (unless the components are optically isolated of course). |
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#42 |
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 54
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Sounds like...... Glad I don't bye motorbikes on that reasoning.... Cost is not the issue its specifications, if a £100 cable can only quote the same specifications on its box as a £20 cable then I will buy the £20 cable... I never take the marketing blurb as factual thats printed outside the box... Quote:
By all means try both and see if it makes any difference to you. If you are happy with a £3 cable then that's fine, that's your choice.
The biggest mistake people make when looking at HDMI is in understanding the way it will fail if there is interference. I think DSat and DTT have given a lot of people the wrong idea about the effects of interference on digital data transfers. On DSat and DTT the data is transferred compressed and hence data corruption causes large noticeable artefacts. The same is NOT true with HDMI. HDMI transmits the data in full without any compression so interference will only manifest as individual pixel errors (maybe just a few in a million). For example this could just mean a few pixels having a lower/higher red channel value than they should - most people probably wouldn't notice and would be quite happy. Of course if the interference is too bad the clock sync will be lost and you'll lose the picture totally. HDMI also doesn't work like your PC network, in an Ethernet (wired or wireless) the receiver of the data is able to request retransmission of corrupt data, HDMI has no such capability so the receiver has to make the best of what it gets. Nigel mentioned blind testing and this is probably a good idea when trying various cables to find one you are happy with, after all, if you are happy what else matters? What I would like to see though is more technical testing of the various cables. For example wrap the cables around a couple of active Wi-Fi hubs/mobile phones and determine the data error rate of the various types of cable in that situation. To date I have seen nothing of the sort, only subjective testing. To return to my original point, if I was spending thousands on a system, I'd want to ensure I've got the best picture possible. Lacking any technical data on the performance of the various cables (since there doesn't appear to be any available) I'd choose the one that sounds like it has the best chance of delivering the data as near perfectly as possible - regardless of the cost. Lastly, with regards to the, admittedly, ridiculously overpriced mains lead mentioned, my point is similar. If you have gone to the effort of eliminating RFI as much as possible from your very expensive media system does it not seem daft to stick to standard unshielded two core flex which WILL re-introduce RFI to your WHOLE system (unless the components are optically isolated of course). |
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#43 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: North Derbyshire
Posts: 41,782
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Sounds like...... Glad I don't bye motorbikes on that reasoning.... Cost is not the issue its specifications, if a £100 cable can only quote the same specifications on its box as a £20 cable then I will buy the £20 cable... I never take the marketing blurb as factual thats printed outside the box...
So you have a £5 cable that meets the spec, you have a £100 that meets the same spec, there are no technical differences published, and on blind tests no one has ever been able to distinguish between them. Some people seem to think the dearer one must be better, and happily help the profits of the shop - but as seen in this thread (and the many others) they can't give any sensible reason for this, and just make silly suggestions about the possibility of it been slightly better under some imaginary fictional interference circumstances. |
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#44 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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To return to my original point, if I was spending thousands on a system, I'd want to ensure I've got the best picture possible. Lacking any technical data on the performance of the various cables (since there doesn't appear to be any available) I'd choose the one that sounds like it has the best chance of delivering the data as near perfectly as possible - regardless of the cost.
It would be like someone marketing a £100 mug that claimed it made coffee taste better. Of course you could buy it and think it tastes better (when it doesnt) or buy a normal mug because you know theres no difference. |
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#45 |
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Worcester
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I've got some magic beans for sale if anyones interested...
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#46 |
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I've got some magic beans for sale if anyones interested...
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#47 |
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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It would appear that it is pointless to continue debating this so this will be my last post on the subject. So here are just a few facts that I'm reasonably sure I've got right but if someone with more knowledge comes along and corrects me so be it.
1. HDMI is an INTERFACE specification in that it specifies connectors and signalling characteristics. It does not to my knowledge specify the quality of the cable used. In particular I have seen no indication off any requirements on RFI shielding for HDMI cables. 2. HDMI transmits uncompressed pixel data with NO error correction at the higher resolutions (above SD). So long as the link is not totally dysfunctional, transmission errors will only show up as 'grain'. (It should be noted that the HDMI specification allows for the corruption of control data packets which can then be retransmitted at the request of the receiver but this does not cover the actual picture data.) 3. RFI is and always has been a very real problem in 20th Century homes let alone 21st Century homes. 4. A complete entertainment system is all electrically connected and hence ANY weak point in the system that allows in RFI will infect the WHOLE system. |
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#48 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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To add point 5
5) There's no evidence to suggest a cheap HDMI lead is in any way less RFI proof, or that any such theoretical RFI has any effect whatsoever on an HDMI connection. Just 'making things up' in no way justifies paying more for a lead that performs identically. |
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#49 |
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Join Date: Nov 2008
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To add point 5
5) There's no evidence to suggest a cheap HDMI lead is in any way less RFI proof, or that any such theoretical RFI has any effect whatsoever on an HDMI connection. Just 'making things up' in no way justifies paying more for a lead that performs identically. Understand that failure of some HDMI leads can occur when Deep Color is transmitted and the cables maximum bandwidth is exceeded. Apparently transmitting at 30 Bits the interface runs 1.25 times faster and at 36 bits 1.5 times faster than normal. This speed change has resulted in some HDMI cables being unable to cope and causes no picture or picture distortion. Solution then is to upgrade the cable or use a shorter one. |
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#50 |
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As for RFI getting through the mains transformer and 'polluting' a system, that's a joke. The mains is a noisy 50/60Hz 220-250V AC system full of spikes and inherent noise. The job of a transformer in an A/V system is to step that down to a useable level and smooth it out. Any RFI that gets into the cable is going to be tiny compared with noise already on the supply and therefore totally removed by the PSU. It is the quality of the PSU which makes the difference here, not the cable bringing the mains in.
What's the point in sheilding the mains cable and not the rest of the house wiring anyway? And if you do sheild the mains wiring, what about the cables to the house, or the HT cables to the substation? You can go too far with eliminating noise and still be fruitless. |
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