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Old 20-01-2004, 13:04
FastEddie
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"Manufactured bands are crap, they've got no talent"
"Rap is crap, all they do is talk into the microphone"
"Dance is crap, they don't even play instruments"
"Metal is crap, they just shout nonsense"
"Pop is crap, they just steal everyone else's ideas"
"R&B is crap, it's so generic"
"Dancehall is crap, people just like it 'cos its cool to"

Has everyone finished? Good. Let's treat music with the respect it deserves. You disagree with someone's opinion? Let's hear it in quantifiable terms. Otherwise it's just apples and oranges.

I despair for the future if this is the best we can come up with.

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Old 20-01-2004, 15:40
ogryn
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It has always been this way. It will always be this way.
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Old 20-01-2004, 15:48
Channel Hopper
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What if it really is crap, on multiple levels, but I havent got the time to find all sources that back the argument up ?
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Old 20-01-2004, 15:54
Geeg
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Well said FE.

We must remember that most of us like all kinds of music on different levels. I am a big Linkin Park and Feeder fan, but also enjoy a bit of Indie Kylie and a bit of Rachmaninov, Gareth gates and David Cassidy or the Black Eyed Peas, Michael Nyman, Phillip Glass or The Cheeky Girls

We can all enjoy the diversity of music and discuss the merits and indeed looking at the social phenomenon that suddenly makes a type of music or artist suddenly popular without resorting to "It's crap" "they're crap", which does nothing to help us understand.
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Old 20-01-2004, 23:29
DryHumper
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All music is crap! Nothing is worth listening to, apart from 4.33 minutes of silence!

Oh, yeah, and the fast food rockers.

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Old 21-01-2004, 09:09
pxd867
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Originally posted by GG
Well said FE.

We must remember that most of us like all kinds of music on different levels. I am a big Linkin Park and Feeder fan, but also enjoy a bit of The Cheeky Girls

I think that's pushing the envelope a bit far!
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Old 21-01-2004, 10:00
Channel Hopper
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I cite one case (M'lud)

Outkast - Hey Ya

Only heard it once, and unfortunately I was treated to it complete with video on TMF.

Utter pish, its been in the UK charts for two months, gets airplay on every commercial station. Its bland, jokey in a totally 'Dude, Wheres my Car humour' the lyrics make the kids menu at Burger King seem intellectual, the backing band can never have seen a music score in their short lives, there is no link to the song with the amateur dance routines, nor the band shots. Even Womak and Womak sound vaguely entertaining compared to this abortion.

Perhaps its only saving grace is that its so bad, there is the hope that nothing in the song will ever be used in any future release, clip or sample.
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Old 21-01-2004, 13:32
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Part of the reason is the music out these days is pretty average but i agree with fasteddie.
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Old 21-01-2004, 13:49
FastEddie
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Originally posted by Channel Hopper
I cite one case (M'lud)

Outkast - Hey Ya

Only heard it once, and unfortunately I was treated to it complete with video on TMF.

Utter pish, its been in the UK charts for two months, gets airplay on every commercial station. Its bland, jokey in a totally 'Dude, Wheres my Car humour' the lyrics make the kids menu at Burger King seem intellectual, the backing band can never have seen a music score in their short lives, there is no link to the song with the amateur dance routines, nor the band shots. Even Womak and Womak sound vaguely entertaining compared to this abortion.

Perhaps its only saving grace is that its so bad, there is the hope that nothing in the song will ever be used in any future release, clip or sample.
I think you might be missing the point of Outkast's song (and video).

Outkast are a hip-hop 'collective'. The song is pure pop, true, and won't go down in history as a seminal work. But the video is very clever. For a start, the 'band' is actually a CG composite of multiple shots of the THREE members of Outkast. It's also a very self-aware pastiche of the taped appearances bands like the Beatles made on American TV in the Sixties. The entire thing is tongue-in-cheek, and i think a lot more subtle than the usual 'girls in thongs' rap videos.

Plus, how can you not love a song with the refrain

Don't want to meet your Daddy / Just want you in my Caddy / Don't want to meet your Momma / Just want to make you come-ah

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Old 21-01-2004, 14:17
ogryn
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Originally posted by FastEddie
I think you might be missing the point of Outkast's song (and video).

Outkast are a hip-hop 'collective'. The song is pure pop, true, and won't go down in history as a seminal work. But the video is very clever. For a start, the 'band' is actually a CG composite of multiple shots of the THREE members of Outkast. It's also a very self-aware pastiche of the taped appearances bands like the Beatles made on American TV in the Sixties. The entire thing is tongue-in-cheek, and i think a lot more subtle than the usual 'girls in thongs' rap videos.

Plus, how can you not love a song with the refrain

Don't want to meet your Daddy / Just want you in my Caddy / Don't want to meet your Momma / Just want to make you come-ah

Outkast is Andre 3000 and Big Boi, no more, no less. Hey Ya is from Andre 3000's half of the double album and the whole band is played by Andre 3000.

I agree with the rest of your statement though ;
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Old 21-01-2004, 15:19
Channel Hopper
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The entire thing is tongue-in-cheek

OK thats the video, I could forgive it if it was entertaining. You havent confirmed it was enjoyable for you, (or would continue to be ten months down the line). The songtrack however should never have seen the light of day as you confirm from the lyrics.

'Hip-hop collective' ? - I recall your roots contain seeds of hip hop, but could you embrace this banjo plucking offshoot as one of your own ?

I agree with the rest of your statement though

What - that it's pish ?
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Old 21-01-2004, 20:43
pta1902
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Andre 3000 is a good rapper in many people's opinions, but for whatever reason he seems to have taken a different direction with The Love Below. Big Boi's album Speakerboxxx however is a lot more "macho" and something that would be instantly recognisable as hip hop to people like Channel Hopper.

For the record not all of Andre 3000's work involves "banjo plucking" and "pop lyrics". This is just based on one track that you've heard once. Outkast have made five albums and have churned out hundreds of tracks for about 10 years and for those who have followed them over the years it is incredibly easy to embrace Andre 3000 as "one of our own".

Loads of people I know love that track, but Channel Hopper thinks it's "pish" so it must be! Just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean that "it really is crap, on multiple levels".
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Old 22-01-2004, 00:03
DryHumper
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I think the futility of it all has just been demonstated. I, like alot of other people, think the Outkast track is class (klass? ), Channel Hopper thinks it's pants, never the twain shall meet.

What's cooler than cool?
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Old 22-01-2004, 00:27
Channel Hopper
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What's cooler than cool?

Ice ?

Anyhow (patabb), as you are able to admit to Hay Ya as 'one of our own', I will happily disown the thought of ever having heard it 'once and not liked it'. Its torture of the type with ones knob in a vice and a block plane on its way towards the tip.

I cannot believe that anyone of the tracks within the last five albums sound anything like this (correct me if I'm wrong), otherwise there would have been a mass exodus of the homeboys, if they were allowed out after dark.
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Old 22-01-2004, 16:15
pta1902
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As a matter of fact you can believe whatever you want about that video, Andre 3000, Outkast or hip-hop in general - it really doesn't make any difference to me in the slightest!

The point is that everyone has different tastes and there is no right or wrong opinion.
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Old 22-01-2004, 17:12
Channel Hopper
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Not sure if that was directed at me for the right reasons.


I would like to find out what makes the listener of this particular track appreciate it, and so far on this thread there has been plenty of 'skirt around the question of the music' but nothing that nails the song as one that deserves the airplay it gets .

FE has been the most honest by saying its 'non seminal', but then discussed the merit of the video (does the showing of vids contribute to the chart success of the song ?)
Ogryn has gone down the 'family tree' route of band members on the collaboration, but mentions nothing of the particular track.
DryHumper has simply bombed out of the discussion (probably a good thing).
You have suggested I have to listen to another five albums worth of stuff to see (I think) where they are coming from with this particular song, which no doubt I would get lost without some guidance.

Your comment, 'but for whatever reason he seems to have taken a different direction with The Love Below' implies this track is not quite your cup of tea either.

What is the history behind releasing it as it stands ?
Why is the track non-seminal, yet successful against other chart songs


I truly want to find out if there is a deeper reason for 'Hey Ya's popularity that I have missed, I dont have a closed mind (actually heard the track six times on TMF, but its still not grown one iota ), but the answers on this thread to date are reminiscent of the type that John Peel on the BBC4 programme yesterday, when looking for inspiration among peers on prog rock lovers (Genesis). 'If I dont get it now I never will' type responses

Seems to be a bit of a closed school at present, with noone able to give an difinitive and understandable reason that 'Hey Ya is as successful in the charts as it is.

Any advance on whats already been said, you might yet get a heathen converted ?


No truncated answers against the original thread
'You disagree with someone's opinion? Let's hear it in quantifiable terms. Otherwise it's just apples and oranges', please
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Old 22-01-2004, 18:03
pta1902
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I'm not very good at all at explaining why I like one track but not another - it's just whether it clicks with me or not. Personally I can't come up with any logical reason why one track does it for me while another one doesn't, it just either appeals to me or it doesn't. Despite that others probably can, so I'll leave it to them to explain why.
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Old 22-01-2004, 22:35
DryHumper
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Originally posted by Channel Hopper
[b]
I would like to find out what makes the listener of this particular track appreciate it, and so far on this thread there has been plenty of 'skirt around the question of the music' but nothing that nails the song as one that deserves the airplay it gets .

DryHumper has simply bombed out of the discussion (probably a good thing).
[b]
Hmmm, well with remarks like that, here goes my response.

The point is, it's a bit like arguing what your favourite colour is, blue's mine, but I cant logically explain why I like blue, I just like it. You either like a song or you don't, you don't have to pick through it logically, because its partly an emotional thing. But hey, maybe not for you, maybe you're vulcan, or borg, or something, and can't seemingly get your head round this fact.

It gets alot of airplay, well....because alot of people like it!!!!!
It's still in the chart, well....because alot of people like it!!!!!

You don't, thats fine, thats music, some people like some stuff, some people like other stuff!!!!! *shock*

Go on, figure it out, I'm sure you can if you think about it enough.
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Old 22-01-2004, 23:10
dj_jus
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It gets a lot of airplay, because someone has made the decision it SHOULD be a hit. The viewing & listening public are then exposed to it several times a day until they can't get it out of their head.

Then the song is released into shops and strategically placed so that people can see it in preference to other things.

Whatever makes people then BUY the song so they can hear it some more baffles me completely. Brainwashing? Perhaps. A lack of people's ability to choose for themselves? Maybe. Sheer greed on the part of the record & media companies? Most likely!

Which song? Just about any song you see the video for on the all-repeat-all-day music channels and any song you might hear from a radio station's A playlist.

Sometimes the process fails though, which is nice! And proves to the marketing suits that their 'formula' isn't so hot after all.
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Old 23-01-2004, 00:40
DryHumper
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Originally posted by dj_jus
It gets a lot of airplay, because someone has made the decision it SHOULD be a hit. The viewing & listening public are then exposed to it several times a day until they can't get it out of their head.

Then the song is released into shops and strategically placed so that people can see it in preference to other things.

Whatever makes people then BUY the song so they can hear it some more baffles me completely. Brainwashing? Perhaps. A lack of people's ability to choose for themselves? Maybe. Sheer greed on the part of the record & media companies? Most likely!

Which song? Just about any song you see the video for on the all-repeat-all-day music channels and any song you might hear from a radio station's A playlist.

Sometimes the process fails though, which is nice! And proves to the marketing suits that their 'formula' isn't so hot after all.
To an extent I'd say you have a point, record companies do influence what gets played, especially when there's an unheathly relationship between the two. But then again, radio stations aren't stupid, they know that if they keep playing stuff people don't want to hear, listeners will vote with their feet.

I think there's a tendancy to believe something is being pushed on a public that doesn't want it, when you yourself "don't get it", but that's music, one mans meat is another man's poison.
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Old 23-01-2004, 04:44
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What happens when you aren't exposed to the multitude of music programming in the public consciousness? I never watch TV music channels, because I can't pick the playlist so the chances of me hearing something I enjoy hearing are remote.
I don't listen to radio stations for much the same reasons but also because they are separated with inane banter and chat most of the time.
Having said that there are the odd exceptions. I listen to Aaron Ross' Soulful House show on 1Xtra to chillout and Hed Kandi on Jazz FM (I've been told its on other stations as well) for much the same reason. I don't question what the tracks are nor do I recognise them. If I happened to hear a track that particularly caught my ear I would try and track down the name of that song. Then the artists other tracks, then perhaps (through Soulseek), artists of similar sounds, and so on.

With Outkast its a strange journey. I, like probably 90% of the UK's population, could not have failed to have heard "Ms Jackson". Unlike some I was instantly irritated by it and quite put off of checking out Outkasts other material. I heard Hey Ya by almost mistake when I was using Soulseek to get a few files from a friend (who is an R'n'B sort of DJ) and a few others got caught up in the midst. I instantly love it, for reasons I cannot explain. Perhaps its the bassline of the song, perhaps its the catchy yet simple lyrics, perhaps its the upbeat 'rambunctiousness' of it all or perhaps it was just because to my ears it was pure candy.

Anyway, after this I waited a few weeks until the album was available, and while I wasn't instantly drawn to the darker Speakerboxx, I could not resist the Love Below album. A few collaborations (leading me to buy Kelis' album), and lots of soul, funk and rhythm just made it a very listenable and ear-friendly album. It's not a particularly involved lyrical experience (at least for me anyway), but thats not what its about for me. Most of my albums are selected on entertainment value, rather than how much I can gleam by what its saying to me. Some criticise bands like Travis and Coldplay for having too much sickly sweetness in their lyrics, but songs like Clocks and Why Does It Always Rain On Me don't appeal to me because they're saying something about love, life or the state of the world, or indeed because the musical media has stated that I must, but because when I heard them I got that rush, that little smile, or the hairs on the back of the neck standing up. That is when you know you like a song. It's not quantative at all, or even explainable it just happens, as I'm sure you all well know.

The decision by the majority of the worlds music listening population to quantify music by saying its "crap" or "great" is purely silly. I love what I love, but in the same instance I know that not everyone will, and I don't try to change that. If a friend likes something that I like, I'll perhaps suggest that they listen to another similar sound, but if they don't like it, thats no problem. Personally I dislike hearing songs by bands like Busted or Atomic Kitten or even common 'favourites' like Metallica or Eminem or Nirvana or Pearl Jam or Pink Floyd or sometimes even Queen. Thats not to say I don't think that that music should not exist, because I know someone likes it. And always, something could come along that surprises me. I disliked a lot of what Will Young has put out (almost all of it in fact), but his newest single has filtered down to me and have to say that I like it. I wouldn't necessarily buy it, but I like it. The problem is that a lot of people in the music world (or indeed a lot of the time in the entire world) think that something that they don't like shouldn't exist. Maybe they don't have that thought directly, but comments such as "Fastfood Rockers are shite" ignore the fact that in order for one of their songs to chart highly enough must have liked it enough to go and buy it. And if they liked it then they enjoyed it. A lot of people would rather see those people not have that enjoyment though, and rather everyone should enjoy EXACTLY the same thing that they do. Can't everyone see how entirely impossible that situation is? Can't everyone be a little more understanding of other people's musical tastes and not be so overly willing to out and out insult that person because of their tastes? I hope some of this has actually registered with some of you, and that most of it actually makes sense.
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Old 23-01-2004, 06:34
JonDoe
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Originally posted by Channel Hopper
I cite one case (M'lud)

Outkast - Hey Ya etc.

...I cannot believe that anyone of the tracks within the last five albums sound anything like this...
That's kind of the point I think. My hat's off to Outkast, they're not afraid to mix it up a bit and try new sounds. The Whole World was similar in so much as it was a break from the ten-a-penny hip hop around at the time. ...On the down side, if it hadn't been for that song we might never have had to endure Big Brovas.

They don't really do it for me, they're neither of them a Mos Def, Nas, Prodigy or Reggie Noble but at least they're trying to push the envelope a little bit. As for why people like Hey Ya. It's catchy. Simple as that.
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Old 23-01-2004, 09:31
iain
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i feel such a fool now. i quite like that outkast song.

and it wasn't down to the marketing, i just heard it on the radio and thought it was a catchy little tune.

anyway - yes - i agree with the orginal sentiment - especially threads along the lines of *I'm so glad Kylie isn't number one. i think if she had been i would have topped myself...* i guess people wouldn't really top themselves, but sometimesits hard to tell....

do people really still care if something gets to number one or not? lets face it, it hasn't really meant diddly squat for years. it used to be quite something if a single went straight in at number one, but these days any old crap does it any old week.

i'm just glad i finally got my arse in gear and finally went to Glastonbury a couple of years ago, and since then its almost been like a return to those halcyon days of going to far more gigs than my grant could afford, and enjoying a lot of live music again (the white stripes were fantastic at Ally Pally on Tuesday night )(cheltenham is a black hole when it comes to live music unfortunately, and it became too easy to stop making the effort to travel to Birmingham, Bristol or London.)

did i have a point to make here? not sure i did actually, so i'll stop now.

Iain
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Old 23-01-2004, 11:39
Channel Hopper
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Thanks phattmatt for that . The rush and the hairs seem to be the way to judge whether something hits home or not, along with (for me) whether I can listen to the same track immediately after.

Ill look into snippets of Speakerbox and the other collaborators, Hey Ya doesn't do it for me, but if the others from the artists are at the other end of the spectrum, then its worth checking them out.
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Old 24-01-2004, 02:26
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Originally posted by FastEddie
"Manufactured bands are crap, they've got no talent"
"Rap is crap, all they do is talk into the microphone"
"Dance is crap, they don't even play instruments"
"Metal is crap, they just shout nonsense"
"Pop is crap, they just steal everyone else's ideas"
"R&B is crap, it's so generic"
"Dancehall is crap, people just like it 'cos its cool to"

Absolutely agree with most of that, FE!
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