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ITV / ON Digital / Top-up TV encryption - HACKED!!


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Old 04-02-2004, 00:22
Mr_G
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First: Why would "Topup" TV use the old on digital / Itv Digital boxes when their encrytion method was hacked ages ago?

Second: Now that people, like myself, have bought a FTA box why would we want to buy a new set top box that has a card input slot?

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Old 04-02-2004, 00:54
Mr Cable
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I suppose it's possible - though very unlikely - that TopUpTV could reach an agreement with CANAL+ and finally create new over-the-air software & encoding stuff for the 1 mil or so OnDig boxes...
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Old 04-02-2004, 00:55
Adder
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There is now a second generation uncompromised version of the encryption, that is why.
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Old 04-02-2004, 00:56
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I believe you'll find the answers (or at least, several items of speculation) regarding these issues in the myriad other threads about Top Up TV. But to summarise:

1. No-one is really sure. It's been speculated that subscribers might be issued with (or have to buy) CAMs that support a different encryption system, and/or a firmware upgrade might be in the works. How likely either of these eventualities might be is anyone's guess, but I agree with you that it is rather problematic.
2. I guess it depends on how badly you want the subscription channels.
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Old 04-02-2004, 01:03
Mr_G
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the second generation uncompromised version of the encryption - Can that be implemented into the first generation of STB's? I guess time will tell...

GOD we are geeks!!!
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Old 04-02-2004, 10:46
raider666
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well if pay tv does come to freeview , the new encryption will be hacked in minutes or seconds. then there will be free tv for everyone. if people who already hav a freeview box(or 1 freeview bos on every tv) will not want to go out and spend another £80 + the monthly fee to get pay tv on freeview. the old itv digital boxes that the company plans to make this pay tv available to will prob not be able to run the system properly because these boxes are old and prob falling apart or in little bits, so it is a stupid idea that will prob go ahead and fall soon after it starts and then we will be bak to freeview again
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Old 04-02-2004, 10:54
andyk22
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Originally posted by raider666
well if pay tv does come to freeview , the new encryption will be hacked in minutes or seconds
So you already have a hack , why are you sitting here then? You could making millions selling your information to people on the continent , becasue they haven't been able to hack the new encyption.

The awnser is they upgrade the encyption like ITVD were planning to an uncompromised system which is still a possibility for this new comapny ,therefore you will be forced to pay.
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Old 04-02-2004, 11:17
Ragnarok
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i can assure you that if top up tv comes about they will not be using the Hacked Seca mediaguard v1 smartcards.

cards through v1-6 where hacked but V7 or later cards are pritty secure.

Also considering that the swiss Kudelski group now owns the french group behind mediaguard could also signal something even more secure than Mediaguard V1+ (v7 or later cards) maybe used. maybe the Nagra Aldin system thats sucessfuly secured premiere in germany.


They'd be pritty stupid or highly cash strapped to use and reactivate the old on/ITV digital cards .
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Old 04-02-2004, 11:22
Ragnarok
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double post

Last edited by Ragnarok : 04-02-2004 at 12:20.
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Old 04-02-2004, 11:34
etldlrl
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Originally posted by Ragnarok
They'd be pritty stupid or highly cash strapped to use and reactivate the old on/ITV digital cards .
Absolutley right, but then I can't think if a better phrase than "pritty stupid" to describe anybody seriously considering another doomed attempt to resurect the corpse of pay TV on DTT at this time, so I guess we will have to wait and see what, if anything, happens.

My money still says that the whole scheme will quietly die the death long before it launches as they discover that the cost of solving these problems renders the whole thing unprofitable.
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Old 04-02-2004, 11:37
Roebuck
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Originally posted by andyk22
So you already have a hack , why are you sitting here then? You could making millions selling your information to people on the continent , becasue they haven't been able to hack the new encyption.

The awnser is they upgrade the encyption like ITVD were planning to an uncompromised system which is still a possibility for this new comapny ,therefore you will be forced to pay.
Sorry to burst your bubble regards the latest generation Canal+ encryption,

1. many of the old ON/ITVD Boxes are no longer supported by the manufacturers since the collapse of ITVD, this effectively means that software updates are just not being made available to the majority of Terrestrial Digital Ex-PayTV Boxes.

2. Software updates must be made available to all boxes and transmitted FTA (without encryption), the reason is very simple really, if the signal is encrypted the boxes will require the decryption sofware to decode it, chicken and the egg scenario.

3. If Top-Up TV do manage to obtain a licence, they will have to allocate space for EPG and Updates etc.

4. During the period where On / ITVD operated the the PayTV Service, there were both PayTV & FTA Services where updates were transmitted FTA, Top-up TV will have to operate a FTA channel probably something like the Sky Customer Channel, rolling advertisement for the service, this will make less room for real channels.
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Old 04-02-2004, 11:56
Roebuck
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Originally posted by Ragnarok
i can assure you that if top up tv comes about they will not be using the Hacked Seca mediaguard v1 smartcards.
Not much choice at present, unless Top-Up TV opt for one of two possible solutions
1. provide a new CAM (Conditional Access Module) to all their prospective customers
2. convince companies such as Ferguson, Nokia, Panasonic, Grundig and Phillips to re-support their "defunct" products
cards through v1-6 where hacked but V7 or later cards are pritty secure.
requires the support of Ex ON/ITVD box manufacturers, plus an FTA channel for Box updates etc.
Also considering that the swiss Kudelski group now owns the french group behind mediaguard could also signal something even more secure than Mediaguard V1+ (v7 or later cards) maybe used. maybe the Nagra Aldin system thats sucessfuly secured premiere in germany.
The CAM used for NAGRAVision is not compatible with Ex On / ITVD Boxes therefore thats a non-starter.
They'd be pritty stupid or highly cash strapped to use and reactivate the old on/ITV digital cards .
I would have to agree that any company that attempted to use the old insecure Canal+ Mediaguard v1 system would be very incompetent indeed.
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Old 04-02-2004, 12:06
thewilks
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Just how many people out there own ex-ITVD boxes that have the CAM removed? The reason I ask is Dixons, Currys and I think Argos sold factory refurbished Nokias (maybe other brands too, like the philips or the Pace) that had removed the Conditional Access Module from the boxes before re-selling re-badged ITVD stock after the launch of Freeview. Theres a posibility a small ammount of boxes have had them removed already.

I got two Nokias for work, both had the CAM removed - One from Dixons and the other from Currys.

It will only be marginal, but there will be a few people who don't realise that thieir ex-ITVD box will not work srraight away, without getting hold of a CAM (which probbably ain't expensive anyway) if this venture went ahead.
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Old 04-02-2004, 12:19
Ragnarok
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Originally posted by Roebuck

Not much choice at present, unless Top-Up TV opt for one of two possible solutions
1. provide a new CAM (Conditional Access Module) to all their prospective customers
2. convince companies such as Ferguson, Nokia, Panasonic, Grundig and Phillips to re-support their "defunct" products

The CAM used for NAGRAVision is not compatible with Ex On / ITVD Boxes therefore thats a non-starter.

It's quite a well known fact that the manufacture of ITV/NO digital boxes only supported the hardware, they had nothing to do with the software. That was all down to another one Canal+ companies and i beleve that the one that top up tv will have to talk to is now owned by NDS.

It's the same reason that the manufacturer never supported there products after ITV digital was finished.

now if you know anything you know that Nagra Aldin is quite special and it is adaptable so it can package up it's own commands in another encryptions format and sucesssfully work with cams other than Nagra ones.

Premiere has 2 cards one for old betacrypt cams and one for nagravision cams but they both use the same ECM data to acheve the same results. both are secure.

I suspect they'll be Seca mediaguard cam compatable cards using nagra's aldin system especialy as nagra now owns mediaguard.
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Old 04-02-2004, 12:33
pyphon
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don't forget idtv's like mine which has a slot for cams to plug in to.
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Old 04-02-2004, 12:37
kenny2kk
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the only real way that PayTV on freeview will ever get going is if the people do the F2P trick and make u phone a 0898 number which is about £1.50 per minute.

But......

if they do it that way, they are open to people posting the codes on open forums/chat rooms etc.

There Damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

But either way there fooked!

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Old 04-02-2004, 12:49
richard771
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if they do it that way, they are open to people posting the codes on open forums/chat rooms etc
Is that possible with F2P at the moment? If one person enters a code, is that code still “live” for another person to enter the code on a different TV?
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Old 04-02-2004, 13:30
FaiLSaFe
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They will probaby use the more secure Mediaguard/Seca 2 encryption currently used by Canal+ across Europe.

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Old 04-02-2004, 13:31
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The only way I can see the Tp Up TV business model working as a mass (rather than niche) market is if they copy the way broadband took off.

Basically you sign up for a year and they give you the box for free. The downside with this is that it requires capital (which I bet they have not got enough of - unless they bought all the duff stock of old boxes from comet, currys. dixons et al) and it doesn't adress the 50% plus of freeviewers who have already shelled out for a non-card box. Plus the revenue is only 1/3 of the revenue from broadband and the cost of the box is higher.
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Old 04-02-2004, 14:16
etldlrl
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Originally posted by DerekP
Basically you sign up for a year and they give you the box for free. The downside with this is that it requires capital (which I bet they have not got enough of - unless they bought all the duff stock of old boxes from comet, currys. dixons et al) and it doesn't adress the 50% plus of freeviewers who have already shelled out for a non-card box. Plus the revenue is only 1/3 of the revenue from broadband and the cost of the box is higher.
Indeed.

The obvious alternative would be to arrange it so that people get a free box if they pay up front for a year's subscription. I can see that going down well with all the ITV digital customers who lost money last time. Not.
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Old 04-02-2004, 14:44
duncans
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The obvious alternative would be to arrange it so that people get a free box if they pay up front for a year's subscription. I can see that going down well with all the ITV digital customers who lost money last time. Not.
If you get a FREE box for a years subscription up front then it wouldnt be that bad cos you'd still get a box if they stopped the service. I mean how many ITV Digital users actually sent there box's back? I didnt and its not failing or in bits either - bonus!!
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Old 04-02-2004, 15:14
Roebuck
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Originally posted by FaiLSaFe
They will probaby use the more secure Mediaguard/Seca 2 encryption currently used by Canal+ across Europe.

FaiLSaFe
who is going to update all the existing boxes, each manufacturer had different operating hardware which used OS dependent software, a little like the old Amiga Computers and PC's Hardware is completely different, but you can unarchive old Amiga ZIP archives on a PC with the RIGHT Software.

the issue exists with Ex-ON / ITVD Boxes a Grundig Box has totally different hardware to the Nokia Boxes, even the OS has some subtle differences, both boxes have specific software written for their OS, which will produce the same result.

Most manufacturers of the Ex-On / ITV Digital boxes no longer support their now defunct models. the manufacturers supplied the management software, whilst NDS provided the interface software and code system.

Its all moot really as it will not be practical to consider until Analogue service ceases transmissions, which will allow the regulators to allocate additional multiplexes.
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Old 04-02-2004, 16:03
etldlrl
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Originally posted by duncans
If you get a FREE box for a years subscription up front then it wouldnt be that bad cos you'd still get a box if they stopped the service. I mean how many ITV Digital users actually sent there box's back? I didnt and its not failing or in bits either - bonus!!
Yes, but you can get a DTT box for £40. If the subscription is £10 per month then you would be a bit pissed off if you paid £120 up front and only got a £40 DTT box out of it when it, inevitably, ceased traiding.
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Old 04-02-2004, 16:35
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I believe that the people behind Top-Up TV has waited until DTT / FREEVIEW had established itself as an alternative to SKY and CABLE Co's. As THEY knew that if they launched it following the ITV/ONDigital fiasco they too would collapse.

I am disgusted at the thought of this, as THEY would have taken us for a ride.

Fortunately, for us. Four of the Six muxs can't be currently used for PAY TV and that leaves THEM with TWO, and I just hope OFCOM forces THEM to use 16QAM instead of 64QAM therefore reducing THEIR capacity.

I HOPE THEY FAIL MISERABLY!
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Old 04-02-2004, 16:43
andyk22
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Originally posted by duncans
If you get a FREE box for a years subscription up front then it wouldnt be that bad cos you'd still get a box if they stopped the service. I mean how many ITV Digital users actually sent there box's back? I didnt and its not failing or in bits either - bonus!!
Or you buy your own box - top up recoomend which ones will be able to handle top up tv. (hey if freeview boxes are flying of the shelf for £40-£80 then I can't see the trouble with you buying your own).
You buy your own decyption card and top up card pack.

You then ring up a number and marry your viewing card to your box so they will only work together (card has a serial number and so does the box).

Your top up card is then linked to the card (which is married to the box) and then you just put on sufficent credit each month so you can view the channels you want to.
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