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ipod volume limiting - circumventable? Will good earphones help?
carnivalist
26-08-2009
Well, finally went down the ipod route instead of the Archos I asked about a while back - only because the refurb 160 Classic I found was a good deal cheaper. Mind you I should probably have listened to those who warned me about itunes, but that's life I guess.

Anyway, as I once mentioned, I'm hard-of-hearing, so the EU volume limit is a problem for me. When I asked before, the limit for the 5th gen upwards hadn't been cracked. Is this still the case?

If so, is it true that better headphones can alleviate this problem? I'm using a £6 Sony set that I use with my personal radio at the moment.

I'm a little surprised at what I've read about this, as I was always under the impression that sensitivity determines the maximume volume a pair of headphones can output and that this isn't necessarily related to sound quality.

I'm looking for a pair of earphones (as opposed to cans) that go as loud as possible and are affordable (under £20 - I'm always losing the things) I'm not concerned whether they reproduce the sound of a dragonfly fluttering in the vocal booth or whatnot - volume is my principal concern.

And before anyone mentions it, I lost most of the hearing that is susceptible to the sort of damage from portable players at birth, so well-intentioned warnings about volume are not relevant in my case.

In a way I understand the rationale behind the EU limit because of that - I wish I had the same hearing as other people, particulary in social situations - however I wish there was more flexibility for people such as me.

NB; I'm NOT referring to the user adjustable limit in the ipod settings, but the software limit imposed on European players by apple at the behest of the EU.
paulmellers
27-08-2009
You could always sue the EU under the diasability laws or something! Seriously though, i feel your pain. Some of the things I do are -

re-encode my favourite songs and edit the levels to be as high as possible.

buy players from outside the EU,

buy the cheap players <£20, these are often the cheapest, look at the argos catalogue.

remove the sponge things from the earphones (in ear type)

use over the ear type earphones I find it holds them in tighter, though i have to melt and change the shape or the over the ear thing as my ers (through deformities) are different shapes and sizes.

and i'd still try and get it cracked so you can turn the volume up!
grumsta
27-08-2009
I use iVolume software to boost the level of all the songs. It's really useful, and very good at getting most songs / albums at the same volume which is great when you do random play or use Genius.
carnivalist
27-08-2009
Originally Posted by paulmellers:
“re-encode my favourite songs and edit the levels to be as high as possible...”

When you say re-encode, I assume you mean using sound editing software and normalising each one?

I thought of that, but it would take forever, unless there's some sort of application that can amplify a number of files in one go? I'm not sure that would work anyway - it's the player, not the source, that's the problem. It doesn't matter how loud you make the mp3s, the ipod will still limit the playback volume.


Quote:
“buy the cheap players <£20, these are often the cheapest, look at the argos catalogue.”

Doesn't everybody implement the volume limit then? Don't tell me it's only Apple. I wouldn't have bought the thing if I'd known that.

Quote:
“use over the ear type earphones I find it holds them in tighter, though i have to melt and change the shape or the over the ear thing as my ers (through deformities) are different shapes and sizes.”

What do you mean by over-the-ear earphones? Do you mean cans/headphones? (Earphones are the type that go IN the ear as opposed to over it.)

Quote:
“and i'd still try and get it cracked so you can turn the volume up!”

That would be the best solution - unfortunately b*st*rd Apple seem to have made it particularly difficult to do this on 5th gen and above, otherwise sombody would presumably have done it by now.

We live in hope.
carnivalist
27-08-2009
Originally Posted by grumsta:
“I use iVolume software to boost the level of all the songs. It's really useful, and very good at getting most songs / albums at the same volume which is great when you do random play or use Genius.”

Thanks, but I don't think this will work. It's just one of many Replay Gain solutions, so as I understand it, it edits metadata to make all the songs perceived loudness the same as the loudest one - it doesn't actually amplify the maximum volume.

As I said in my earlier reply, it doesn't matter how loud the source mp3s are - the ipod will limit the playback to a set level.
DaveyJ
27-08-2009
The output from the dock socket is not limited so you can buy the Apple remote control (which uses the dock, not headphone, socket) and plug your headphones of choice into that.

Only two drawbacks: First, all that extra cable to hide away, second, it's only available in white (not a problem if your iPod is white)

There is a small dock connector with a headphone socket available (see http://sendstation.com/us/products/p...t-miniusb.html) which could save all that extra cable. However, while the iPod wheel adjusts the level from the Apple dock, I don't know if it does through this device. I've ordered one so I'll soon know.

Mod note: I have no connection with the suppliers of this device - if this is considered an ad, please remove.
PrinceGaz
28-08-2009
I'm unfamiliar with this enforced EU-wide volume limiting, and if such a thing does exist, it is a very cack-handed measure as the in-ear volume is very dependent on exactly what type of earphones or headphones are being used. The only limitations I'm aware of being generally used are a user selectable limit on the signal-amplitude sent to the headphone socket, which is totally optional (unless enforced by parental-controls which have been set for a good reason).

Given that all earphones and headphones have quite different sensitivities and impedances, meaning that what may be loud on one will be quite quiet on another, I fail to see how any law like this could sensibly work. An EU limit on maximum permitted signal level would be reasonable, but you should still be able to get very loud sounding earphones using that signal-level, compared with headphones which generally require a much higher signal level.
Hurlley
28-08-2009
Originally Posted by PrinceGaz:
“I'm unfamiliar with this enforced EU-wide volume limiting, and if such a thing does exist, it is a very cack-handed measure as the in-ear volume is very dependent on exactly what type of earphones or headphones are being used. The only limitations I'm aware of being generally used are a user selectable limit on the signal-amplitude sent to the headphone socket, which is totally optional (unless enforced by parental-controls which have been set for a good reason).

Given that all earphones and headphones have quite different sensitivities and impedances, meaning that what may be loud on one will be quite quiet on another, I fail to see how any law like this could sensibly work. An EU limit on maximum permitted signal level would be reasonable, but you should still be able to get very loud sounding earphones using that signal-level, compared with headphones which generally require a much higher signal level.”

How is it fully dependant on headphones? Sure I get that some may be louder or quieter by the simple fact that volume can be adjusted on the iPod is enough to know that the player itself controls volume? If Apple can implement manual volume limiting surely they themselves can set the original 100% volume down to say e.g. 80% as the max, and you are just controlling within that 0-80% which you see as 0-100% Am i missing something?
PrinceGaz
28-08-2009
Originally Posted by Hurlley:
“How is it fully dependant on headphones? Sure I get that some may be louder or quieter by the simple fact that volume can be adjusted on the iPod is enough to know that the player itself controls volume? If Apple can implement manual volume limiting surely they themselves can set the original 100% volume down to say e.g. 80% as the max, and you are just controlling within that 0-80% which you see as 0-100% Am i missing something?”

It doesn't matter what Apple or anyone sets 100% as, or what the EU sets the maximum output level of a PMP as, earphones and headphones will have widely differing sensitivities meaning what sounds loud on somes will sound quiet on others. I'm unfamiliar with this EU law and how it applies, as it would mean the best headphones (which by defenition are less sensitive) are unable to play at a satisfactory volume. As such, I'm unconvinced (unless pointed to a page detailing an EU law on output-amplitude of PMPs) that there is any such restriction in place, and the only restriction I'm aware of is a user/parent-selectable one preventing the volume exceeding safe levels with the earphones provided with the device.
jbeavon
28-08-2009
This is probably a totally crazy idea, but would some sort of iPod Headphone Amplifier work?
chrisjr
28-08-2009
Originally Posted by PrinceGaz:
“I'm unfamiliar with this enforced EU-wide volume limiting, and if such a thing does exist, it is a very cack-handed measure as the in-ear volume is very dependent on exactly what type of earphones or headphones are being used. The only limitations I'm aware of being generally used are a user selectable limit on the signal-amplitude sent to the headphone socket, which is totally optional (unless enforced by parental-controls which have been set for a good reason).

Given that all earphones and headphones have quite different sensitivities and impedances, meaning that what may be loud on one will be quite quiet on another, I fail to see how any law like this could sensibly work. An EU limit on maximum permitted signal level would be reasonable, but you should still be able to get very loud sounding earphones using that signal-level, compared with headphones which generally require a much higher signal level.”

Have a read of this. Explains the methods used to assess sound levels and gives pointers to the actual EU regs. that set the limits

http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/c...nihr_o_018.pdf

The relevant bits of legislation are...

The Radio and Telecommunications Terminal Equipment (R&TTE) Directive 1999/5/EC

The Low Voltage Directive (LVD) 2006/95/EC
carnivalist
28-08-2009
Originally Posted by PrinceGaz:
“I'm unfamiliar with this enforced EU-wide volume limiting, and if such a thing does exist, it is a very cack-handed measure as the in-ear volume is very dependent on exactly what type of earphones or headphones are being used. The only limitations I'm aware of being generally used are a user selectable limit on the signal-amplitude sent to the headphone socket, which is totally optional (unless enforced by parental-controls which have been set for a good reason).

Given that all earphones and headphones have quite different sensitivities and impedances, meaning that what may be loud on one will be quite quiet on another, I fail to see how any law like this could sensibly work. An EU limit on maximum permitted signal level would be reasonable, but you should still be able to get very loud sounding earphones using that signal-level, compared with headphones which generally require a much higher signal level.”

(NB I've done a lot of research since my last post)

The volume firmware cap is a well-known issue. It was introduced at the behest of the French, who have a legal limit on the output of Personal Media Players - apple had to recall all their ipods in France prior to the firmware cap.

I believe the maximimum output is 75% of non-EU models, which is a significant difference. Just google for page after page of entries from people annoyed about it/asking for solutions - even on apple's own site. It is an entirely different issue than the user adjustable volume limit which you refer to.

I understand it was hackable up until 6th gen, but as apple have apparently encrypted their firmware there is as yet no hack for contemporary models. The consensus seems to be that there is unlikely to be either.

Even with headphones of high-sensititvity and low impedance many, many users report a problem - particularly in noisy environments - not just hearing-impaired individuals like me either.

As a result of my experience, I would urge anyone intending to buy an ipod to consider buying outside the EU (Apple's warranty is apparently worldwide) or to buy an alternative model that doesn't have encrypted firmware and can be hacked to remove the volume cap. (I think Archos and Cowan can be hacked, although I'm not sure).

At least go into a store and see if the volume is acceptable to you - it is nonsense to say that, "you should still be able to get very loud sounding earphones using that signal-level". I tdepends what the signal level is, personal preference and other considerations, such as existing hearing impairment (listening to a podcast in a noisy environment is pointless for me at present). If I'd done that I would have advised the person buying the ipod as a present not to bother.

Personally I will not buy another ipod, unless it is a non-EU model.

Beware.
carnivalist
28-08-2009
Originally Posted by jbeavon:
“This is probably a totally crazy idea, but would some sort of iPod Headphone Amplifier work?”

Great minds think alike . I'm investigating that at the moment.

Some seem to be more a question of improving quality rather than volume, though and also I obviously wouldn't want something too big.

ON that note if anyone has any recommendations, please post.

I'm thinking the Fiio E3 or E5, or a Boosteroo?
carnivalist
28-08-2009
Originally Posted by DaveyJ:
“The output from the dock socket is not limited so you can buy the Apple remote control (which uses the dock, not headphone, socket) and plug .”

I don't understand? Are you referring to the EU volume cap?
Everything I've read leads me to believe that it's a firmware cap, not a hardware one. Why isn't the volume cap present via the dock?

I hope this works, because if you're correct, you've hit upon a genius solution.
DaveyJ
29-08-2009
Originally Posted by carnivalist:
“I don't understand? Are you referring to the EU volume cap?
Everything I've read leads me to believe that it's a firmware cap, not a hardware one. Why isn't the volume cap present via the dock?

I hope this works, because if you're correct, you've hit upon a genius solution.”

There is definately no cap via the dock - if there was then EU iPods may not produce enough signal level to drive an amplifier sufficiently compared with, say, an American one.

I have the Apple remote and using headphones from this produces a much greater volume than from the headphone jack for a given volume setting. The maximum level is much higher with my headphones via the dock socket than through the headphone jack.
carnivalist
31-08-2009
Originally Posted by DaveyJ:
“There is definately no cap via the dock - if there was then EU iPods may not produce enough signal level to drive an amplifier sufficiently compared with, say, an American one.

I have the Apple remote and using headphones from this produces a much greater volume than from the headphone jack for a given volume setting. The maximum level is much higher with my headphones via the dock socket than through the headphone jack.”

Right. Listen very carefully.

I'm going to try this. If it works and I can hear my podcasts clearly, I'm going to track you down and give you a kiss full of slobber.

In fact I might even try to turn gay and volunteer for the world's first uterus transplant, just so I can have your children.

Start running.
grumsta
02-09-2009
>>Thanks, but I don't think this will work. It's just one of many Replay Gain solutions, so as I understand it, it edits metadata to make all the songs perceived loudness the same as the loudest one - it doesn't actually amplify the maximum volume.<<

That's not strictly true: you can set the level that all the tracks are equalised to, and I boosted the "average" volume to make all my tracks louder. Whether that's enough for your needs I can't say, but as it's a free trial why not download it and give it a go with a couple of tracks?
DaveyJ
02-09-2009
Originally Posted by DaveyJ:
“
There is a small dock connector with a headphone socket available (see http://sendstation.com/us/products/p...t-miniusb.html) which could save all that extra cable. However, while the iPod wheel adjusts the level from the Apple dock, I don't know if it does through this device. I've ordered one so I'll soon know.”

It arrived today and sorry to report that the output from the 3.5mm socket is fixed, unlike that from the Apple dock.

That's going straight into the museum of recent technology (aka the loft).
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