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The All Purpose Rugby Union Thread
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apaul
06-02-2012
The practical difference in this case between a (deserved) red and yellow was only 4 minutes and as others have said Davies was not crucially involved when he came back on the pitch. Ireland lost because they could not cope with 14 man Wales or stop Wales advancing 50 metres to get into scoring position. On the balance of play Wales should probably have won by a few more points and the match was not decided by officials' mistakes.
The Fozzmeister
07-02-2012
Originally Posted by Finny Skeleta:
“I think that part of the problem is that referees are reluctant to give out red cards. A red card in rugby tends to ruin the game as a contest and referees seem reluctant to spoil it for the people who have paid a lot of money to see the game. They'd rather give a player ten minutes and then leave it up to the citing commissioner to punish the player after the game.”

Yeah I agree with that, referees would definitely rather give a yellow than a red.

But that leads to another point - should the referees really give a flying f*ck about the fans? They are there to referee the game, not pander to the fans. I understand tickets aren't cheap, but I would rather see a definitive red card being given, than the ref pussy out and leave the decision to the citing commissioner.

Plus, in a game as tight as Saturday's, red cards need to be given out properly, if it had cost the Wales team the game then it might give players cause to think again. As it is it gives the impression that they can commit a red-card-worthy foul, and get to stay on the pitch for the majority of the game, then run the risk of a ban. The RFU has proven itself to be pretty lenient with bans in the last couple of years (Mealamu two weeks for a headbutt, Tuilagi 5 weeks for 3 unprovoked punches, Burger 8 weeks for gouging) so it's worth taking the risk.

Quote:
“I can understand that way of thinking. Two games I can think of off the top of my head where a player was sent off early are the semi last year and Wales vs Scotland in 2006 where Scott Murray saw red for kicking Ian Gough. Both games turned sour and unsatisfying after the sendings off and even when Wales were the beneficiaries of the decision and the eventually winners I didn't enjoy the match at all.”


I'm not a fan of Steve Walsh but he couldn't do anything other than send off Scott Murray, he kicked gough in the face right in front of the ref. a yellow would have bought the game into disrepute.

I'll always remember England/New Zealand when Stuart Dickinson advised the ref to send off Simon Shaw after ten minutes. Admittedly Shaw dropped his shin into the NZ player, but he was lying all over the wrong side of the ruck. Terrible decision that ruined the game. But that was a bad decision, if it's a right decision that results in a red card then why shouldn't they be given after 10 minutes? If it ruins the game it's the player who should be culpable, not the referees.

Quote:
“The effect of losing one player for a rugby team is devastating and when you consider that red card offences are usually impulsive, spur of the moment and often provoked incidences the thought of punishing a whole team just for one individual moment of lunacy doesn't sit well with me.

Show them yellow, get on with the game and then throw the book at them afterwards, that's how I'd prefer it done. I hope BD enjoyed the last five minutes of that game because it's probably the last he'll see until September.

On the other hand I'm all in favour of reds for persistent infringement. If a player is lying all over the ball at every ruck then they should get a warning, then a yellow and a clear message that one more and he won't be coming back on the pitch.”

I'm the complete opposite of this. If someone commits a spur-of-the-moment act that is dangerous/reckless/careless etc, then h should be sent off. That's it. If it spoils the game, ruins the teams dynamics or changes the flow of the game then maybe the culprit should think about not doing it again.

They're professional players, they should be able to play 80 minutes without committing a red card offence. There are very few ways to get sent off in rugby, you've got to be an absolute moron if you manage to actually do it.

that's my 2 cents anyway.
Mike Teevee
07-02-2012
Cardiff Blues go back to Cardiff Arms Park

Quote:
“Blues chief executive Richard Holland said: "There are no long term plans in place to move back to the Arms Park permanently.

"However, we have listened to what our supporters are saying and it should be a great occasion to play this match at the Arms Park." ”

Marmite Baby
07-02-2012
Originally Posted by The Fozzmeister:
“I'm the complete opposite of this. If someone commits a spur-of-the-moment act that is dangerous/reckless/careless etc, then h should be sent off. That's it. If it spoils the game, ruins the teams dynamics or changes the flow of the game then maybe the culprit should think about not doing it again.

They're professional players, they should be able to play 80 minutes without committing a red card offence. There are very few ways to get sent off in rugby, you've got to be an absolute moron if you manage to actually do it.

that's my 2 cents anyway.”

Totally agree.
Stever7
07-02-2012
Quote:
“They have. I cant remember the exact wording, but the new law states that a spear/tip tackle basically starts out at a red card and is worked backwards. Ferris deserved a penalty but yellow was probably harsh because the tackled player landed on his side and Ferris didn't drive him into the ground. Davies deserved red because he let him go from a height while he was upside down.”

In my opinion it should have been red for Davies for the reasons stated but the yellow for Ferris was justified. He landed on his side purely because Evans got his arm out to soften the fall in my opinion; not because Ferris made an effort to stop him going down on his neck.

I don't suggest Ferris meant it though. In my opinion it was the same type of tackle that Sam got red for at the WC and both should have been a yellow and nothing more or less.

But yeah, how Davies didn't get a straight red I'll never know. And that's coming from a Wales fan!

A paper I read the next day summed it up though; Wales desivered to win but didn't diserve to win the way they did.
david1955
07-02-2012
Dan Parks has retired from international rugby. Pity for Scotland that he didn't retire last week. I don't imagine that he would have been picked again anyway.
Caltonfan
07-02-2012
Originally Posted by david1955:
“Dan Parks has retired from international rugby. Pity for Scotland that he didn't retire last week. I don't imagine that he would have been picked again anyway.”

should have retired a long time ago, he was never good enough to play for Scotland, has cost us on many occasions
david1955
07-02-2012
Originally Posted by Caltonfan:
“should have retired a long time ago, he was never good enough to play for Scotland, has cost us on many occasions”

Dan Parks was never the most popular player with Scottish fans !

Predictions for the weekend? I got the France score almost exactly right though I Got the two other results wrong.

France 26-11 Ireland

Italy 18-17 England

Wales 39- 6 Scotland
Stever7
07-02-2012
Originally Posted by david1955:
“Dan Parks was never the most popular player with Scottish fans !

Predictions for the weekend? I got the France score almost exactly right though I Got the two other results wrong.

France 26-11 Ireland

Italy 18-17 England

Wales 39- 6 Scotland”

I almost agree;

France 31-23 Ireland

Italy 14-19 England

Wales 42 - 12 Scotland
The Fozzmeister
07-02-2012
I think people are doing Scotland a disservice. That game will be closer than you think.
sensoria
07-02-2012
Originally Posted by Caltonfan:
“should have retired a long time ago, he was never good enough to play for Scotland, has cost us on many occasions”

I'm glad he lasted one more game...
sensoria
07-02-2012
France 22 Ireland 26
Italy 9 England 28
Wales 19 Scotland 12
Marmite Baby
08-02-2012
Originally Posted by Caltonfan:
“should have retired a long time ago, he was never good enough to play for Scotland, has cost us on many occasions”

Bit harsh - is that because he was Australian in a popular position? He probably went on a couple of years too long but he was instrumental in wins over the years including against Argentina (away), Ireland (away), and South Africa. It's not as if there was anybody better to step in. You have to go right back to the 80s and John Rutherford for the last time Scotland produced a top-class fly-half. Gregor Townsend, a great if unpredictable centre, never really cut it at number ten.
Mike Teevee
08-02-2012
France v Ireland - France by 10

Italy v England - England by 7

Wales v Scotland - Wales by 10
Smiley433
08-02-2012
John Beattie's blog on Dan Parks' exit.
Glawster2002
08-02-2012
Originally Posted by Finny Skeleta:
“I think that part of the problem is that referees are reluctant to give out red cards. A red card in rugby tends to ruin the game as a contest and referees seem reluctant to spoil it for the people who have paid a lot of money to see the game. They'd rather give a player ten minutes and then leave it up to the citing commissioner to punish the player after the game.

I can understand that way of thinking. Two games I can think of off the top of my head where a player was sent off early are the semi last year and Wales vs Scotland in 2006 where Scott Murray saw red for kicking Ian Gough. Both games turned sour and unsatisfying after the sendings off and even when Wales were the beneficiaries of the decision and the eventually winners I didn't enjoy the match at all.

The effect of losing one player for a rugby team is devastating and when you consider that red card offences are usually impulsive, spur of the moment and often provoked incidences the thought of punishing a whole team just for one individual moment of lunacy doesn't sit well with me.

Show them yellow, get on with the game and then throw the book at them afterwards, that's how I'd prefer it done. I hope BD enjoyed the last five minutes of that game because it's probably the last he'll see until September.

On the other hand I'm all in favour of reds for persistent infringement. If a player is lying all over the ball at every ruck then they should get a warning, then a yellow and a clear message that one more and he won't be coming back on the pitch.”

I'm sorry, but that is complete nonsense.

As a result of Bradley Davies' actions, Donnacha Ryan could easily have been left with a broken neck - would that have deserved a yellow as well? After all you say it isn't fair to penalise a team because of the actions of one player.

Davies didn't accidentally tip Ryan on to his head as a result of tackling a player with the ball. It was off the ball and a deliberate attempt to cause injury, you could see the intent in his face as he lifted him off the ground, and if that doesn't warrant a straight red card then I don't know what does.
sensoria
08-02-2012
Originally Posted by Glawster2002:
“I'm sorry, but that is complete nonsense.

As a result of Bradley Davies' actions, Donnacha Ryan could easily have been left with a broken neck - would that have deserved a yellow as well? After all you say it isn't fair to penalise a team because of the actions of one player.

Davies didn't accidentally tip Ryan on to his head as a result of tackling a player with the ball. It was off the ball and a deliberate attempt to cause injury, you could see the intent in his face as he lifted him off the ground, and if that doesn't warrant a straight red card then I don't know what does.”

He has got a seven week ban. Quite leniant in my opinion.
The Fozzmeister
08-02-2012
Yeah I thought that, I thought it would be a good few months. At this rate he'll only miss the six nations by a week or two.
sharren
08-02-2012
Originally Posted by labelsandlove:
“I am also hoping for an Ospreys win...shame it's not on TV (that I know of).”

try s4c or red button bbc or sky sports ive missed quite a few blues games by not pressing the red button
Finny Skeleta
08-02-2012
Originally Posted by Glawster2002:
“I'm sorry, but that is complete nonsense.

As a result of Bradley Davies' actions, Donnacha Ryan could easily have been left with a broken neck - would that have deserved a yellow as well? After all you say it isn't fair to penalise a team because of the actions of one player.

Davies didn't accidentally tip Ryan on to his head as a result of tackling a player with the ball. It was off the ball and a deliberate attempt to cause injury, you could see the intent in his face as he lifted him off the ground, and if that doesn't warrant a straight red card then I don't know what does.”

I was merely pointing out that personally I don't like red cards in rugby. I'm not going to go lobbying the IRB to change the laws nor am I defending BD's actions, it was a red card offence and he was extremely lucky to get away with just a yellow and seven weeks.

A red card can pretty much end a game and it seems to me that many referees are reluctant to kill a contest. If they don't give a red when they should have then the citing commission will take over afterwards and sort it out, however if they give a red and it's the wrong decision then the whole game is on their head.

This leads to the problem that everyone is complaining about now which is inconsistency. The Davies incident is pretty much the perfect example of law 10.4(j) and seeing as it happened directly in front of Pearson the only possible reason I can think of why he didn't recommend the red is that he didn't want that much responsibility on his shoulders. Most refs err on the side of caution, Alain Rolland didn't and he was (unfairly) hammered by many people after the Warburton incident, was this on Pearson's mind when Barnes asked him for his recommendation?

Of course, none of this would be an issue if it was the good old days and Bradley was allowed to give Ryan a swift left hook instead.
sensoria
08-02-2012
Originally Posted by Finny Skeleta:
“I was merely pointing out that personally I don't like red cards in rugby. I'm not going to go lobbying the IRB to change the laws nor am I defending BD's actions, it was a red card offence and he was extremely lucky to get away with just a yellow and seven weeks.

A red card can pretty much end a game and it seems to me that many referees are reluctant to kill a contest. If they don't give a red when they should have then the citing commission will take over afterwards and sort it out, however if they give a red and it's the wrong decision then the whole game is on their head.

This leads to the problem that everyone is complaining about now which is inconsistency. The Davies incident is pretty much the perfect example of law 10.4(j) and seeing as it happened directly in front of Pearson the only possible reason I can think of why he didn't recommend the red is that he didn't want that much responsibility on his shoulders. Most refs err on the side of caution, Alain Rolland didn't and he was (unfairly) hammered by many people after the Warburton incident, was this on Pearson's mind when Barnes asked him for his recommendation?

Of course, none of this would be an issue if it was the good old days and Bradley was allowed to give Ryan a swift left hook instead. ”

punch him for what clearing a ruck and making Davies look a bit of a mug?
The Fozzmeister
08-02-2012
to be fair, what passes for rucking these days is up for debate.

Ferris has been cleared, will play on Saturday.

The big furore now is that Pearson is reffing the France game on Saturday. People seem to be blaming Wayne Barnes. I don't think he did anything wrong. The only thing he could have done different is overturn Pearson's decision and give a red card. He obviously thought the Ferris tackle was worthy of a yellow card.

Pearson might find himself looked at more closely on Saturday though.
sensoria
08-02-2012
Originally Posted by The Fozzmeister:
“to be fair, what passes for rucking these days is up for debate.

.”

I agree with that, but Ryan cleared that ruck as the welsh were peeling of it and leaving it vunarable. He did a great job. Davies was looking aound like he had all the time in the world. I have said time and again this is Wlaes problem. They don't protect their breakdown and start to pull away from it.

Worst thing to happen in rugby was when they stopped the rucking withe the boot law. I never hung around the ball when I knew a boot was going to clear me off of it.
Dai13371
09-02-2012
Originally Posted by Glawster2002:
“I'm sorry, but that is complete nonsense.

As a result of Bradley Davies' actions, Donnacha Ryan could easily have been left with a broken neck - would that have deserved a yellow as well? After all you say it isn't fair to penalise a team because of the actions of one player.

Davies didn't accidentally tip Ryan on to his head as a result of tackling a player with the ball. It was off the ball and a deliberate attempt to cause injury, you could see the intent in his face as he lifted him off the ground, and if that doesn't warrant a straight red card then I don't know what does.”

Bradley Davies was a bellend of the highest order, but since Rolland and that blasted IRB directive everyone is talking about reds. I don't recall everyone scutinising foul play so much now that we know what the IRB are gunning for.

I see no one has mentioned negatively the hit on Adam Jones by Ryan, almost exactly like the hit that Bakkies Botha was cited and banned for in Pretoria. In hard and no attempt to bind. More than one source say this was an illegal hit and it was the cataylst for Davies' brainfart. Consistency is the key word here and there is absolutely none whether it be tip tackles or illegal clear outs.
Dai13371
09-02-2012
Originally Posted by sensoria:
“I agree with that, but Ryan cleared that ruck as the welsh were peeling of it and leaving it vunarable. He did a great job. Davies was looking aound like he had all the time in the world. I have said time and again this is Wlaes problem. They don't protect their breakdown and start to pull away from it.

Worst thing to happen in rugby was when they stopped the rucking withe the boot law. I never hung around the ball when I knew a boot was going to clear me off of it.”

This is so true and I am glad someone agrees.
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