Techie Question on DVD Upscaling to HD

What's disappointing about the Tevion (and I expected it to be BETTER than the 860 in this regard) is that when connected to the same input on the TV and using the same DVD, the picture quality is MUCH worse than the much older Sony HXD860.

You buy a cheap crappy Tevion, and expect it to be better than your expensive Sony? - don't you see the flaw in that thought?.

As 'Willie Wontie' has said, your TV has an exceptionally good scaler in it, far better than the one in the cheap DVD player. It will also make sod all difference using HDMI or RGB SCART, both greatly exceed DVD quality, I've installed many HXD890's via BOTH, and couldn't tell you which was which if money depoended on it. Connect two identical Sony TV's side by side to the same 890, one via RGB SCART, and one via HDMI, and you can't tell the difference.

CPN · 03-09-2009, 15:44

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A cheap brand like Tevion aren't going to have an upscaler as good as the one in your Sony TV.

That's what I was thinking....

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So, you are now using the Tevion to convert a standard DVD image to 1080i which means the TV will just display what it receives,

Ok, I get the premise, however...

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whereas before you were outputting a 576i image from your Sony DVD player which your TV was then upscaling itself to fit into a 1080i screen.

Not quite true because the Sony DVD player was connected via its own HDMI connection and that is set in system setup to be 1080i output. Surely it's not possible to send a 576i signal over an HDMI interface?

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Set your Tevion to output in 576i format rather than 1080i,

...and if I do that, it won't actually come out of the HDMI socket will it?

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and your TV will revert back to doing the upscaling - and probably doing a far better job of it than your DVD player is managing.

I'm agreeing with you there...

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You'll still have the advantage of a HDMI connection rather than scart - but let the thing which is good at upscaling do the upscaling, not the thing which isn't very good at it.

So I guess my question is coming down to whether the HDMI cable will transfer an SD signal "untouched" as it were?

Willie Wontie · 03-09-2009, 15:48

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So I guess my question is coming down to whether the HDMI cable will transfer an SD signal "untouched" as it were?

Of course it will. A Sky HD box can be set to output 576 via HDMI (which downscales HD transmissions, and keeps SD transmissions at their initial scale). Or you can set the HDMI output to Auto - which sends HD images out in 1080, SD images out in 576.

My DVD recorder can be set to output 576i (no upscaling) via HDMI. I think my Blu Ray player can be set to output 576 when playing standard DVDs via HDMI if I want it to. The cable isn't magic - it doesn't upscale. All it does is transfer the bits that it is told to from one end to the other. As long as your DVD player(s) are told to not upscale, they won't upscale.

CPN · 03-09-2009, 15:51

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You buy a cheap crappy Tevion, and expect it to be better than your expensive Sony? - don't you see the flaw in that thought?.

ROTFLMAO!

Well, yes I do but I was just trying to find a box with a built-in 5.1 decoder plus USB/Card reader and DivX compatibility and that seems to be an impossibility when it comes to higher quality boxes...

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As 'Willie Wontie' has said, your TV has an exceptionally good scaler in it, far better than the one in the cheap DVD player.

I'm learning that fast!

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Connect two identical Sony TV's side by side to the same 890, one via RGB SCART, and one via HDMI, and you can't tell the difference.

Funny you should say that because that is what we were just comparing here... we have the 860 hooked up via SCART and HDMI onto the 32W4000 and you're right, the difference is imperceptible to the eye on the same content actually...

Nigel Goodwin · 03-09-2009, 15:57

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Funny you should say that because that is what we were just comparing here... we have the 860 hooked up via SCART and HDMI onto the 32W4000 and you're right, the difference is imperceptible to the eye on the same content actually...

I know, I used to connect both, because that gives the customer the option - and WS switching works better via SCART than HDMI.

But everyone complained that the picture was no better via HDMI, and it's 'upscaling', there must be something wrong - so I stopped fitting the SCART lead, and just used HDMI.

The W series Sony is also a seriously top end set, with a particularly good scaler - a Tevion from Aldi is going to be such a great deal poorer.

As for surround sound, buy a separate surround sound amp - don't keep all your eggs in one basket.

CPN · 03-09-2009, 17:16

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I know, I used to connect both, because that gives the customer the option - and WS switching works better via SCART than HDMI.

Absolutely... HDMI seems to be sloooooow at everything it does in regard to switching

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The W series Sony is also a seriously top end set, with a particularly good scaler -

Indeed it is and I'm finding that out as I compare stuff in the market place more widely...

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a Tevion from Aldi is going to be such a great deal poorer.

Quite. You'd have thought I'd have learnt my lesson by now but I'm a sucker for an apparent "bargain"... It's on its way back for a refund.

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As for surround sound, buy a separate surround sound amp - don't keep all your eggs in one basket.

Is it possible to buy just a decoder? My Grundig 5.1 speaker system is superb quality and already has its amps built in... (and I'm loathe to just chuck it out when it works so well)

Nigel Goodwin · 03-09-2009, 17:40

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Originally Posted by JimRockford

Is it possible to buy just a decoder? My Grundig 5.1 speaker system is superb quality and already has its amps built in... (and I'm loathe to just chuck it out when it works so well)

There certainly has been in the past, but they tend to be VERY expensive.

JimRockford · 09-09-2009, 12:45

You've got a Sony TV, so do yourself a favour and buy a decent DVD player to go with it.

bobcar · 09-09-2009, 14:57

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You've got a Sony TV, so do yourself a favour and buy a decent DVD player to go with it.

To be fair you wouldn't find a great deal of difference between the PQ of different DVD players - as long as you don't expect the upscaling to be good. (There are differences but nothing like as great as between TVs so you're better off with a good TV and a cheap DVD player rather than trying to even the costs).

JimRockford · 09-09-2009, 16:55

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Originally Posted by bobcar

To be fair you wouldn't find a great deal of difference between the PQ of different DVD players - as long as you don't expect the upscaling to be good. (There are differences but nothing like as great as between TVs so you're better off with a good TV and a cheap DVD player rather than trying to even the costs).

I disagree. I'm not talking about upscaling, just the quality of the image from the player.

bobcar · 10-09-2009, 14:47

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Originally Posted by JimRockford

I disagree. I'm not talking about upscaling, just the quality of the image from the player.

I tried to make clear that there may be some difference just not that much especially when compared to the difference the TV will make which is massive especially on an SD signal such as DVD. It is even conceivable that the cheapo may give a better picture - whether it will last as long is a different issue.

MPEG decoding (not encoding before someone jumps in) is in itself lossless though there are some decoders that make a pigs ear of it, given the digital nature of the signal and assuming the decoding is okay (I admit sometimes it isn't) then the only scope to improve the PQ is by post precessing before sending the signal on - this post processing has to be better than what is in the TV though so if you already have a good TV then there is less point in getting a good DVD player.

Basically the main way that a cheap DVD player can be worse PQ wise than an expensive one is if it does something wrong and as the chipsets mature there is less scope for this.

My take would be that if you have a cheap TV then an expensive DVD player with a good upscaler makes a lot of sense whereas if you have a good TV then you can get away with a cheaper player.

CPN · 10-09-2009, 17:13

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Originally Posted by bobcar

My take would be that if you have a cheap TV then an expensive DVD player with a good upscaler makes a lot of sense whereas if you have a good TV then you can get away with a cheaper player.

...or plainly not in my case...

As you can see, I already have a Sony HXD860 Freeview PVR (with DVD recorder/player) and I expected the Tevion to at least match the image quality of the 860 when simply used as a player (both feeding the HDMI i/p of the Sony 32W4000) and it simply did not and fell far short by comparison actually.

I think I have come to learn that I am not going to get much better from a bought DVD/TV combo than what I already have actually and when used in this way, the SD quality is actually very good with barely perceptible "jagging" on diagonal straight edges...

Nigel Goodwin · 10-09-2009, 19:51

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...or plainly not in my case...

As you can see, I already have a Sony HXD860 Freeview PVR (with DVD recorder/player) and I expected the Tevion to at least match the image quality of the 860 when simply used as a player (both feeding the HDMI i/p of the Sony 32W4000) and it simply did not and fell far short by comparison actually.

So why would expect the cheapest nastiest DVD player you could find would be as good as a far more expensive one from a top manufacturer?.

You found exactly what I would expect - and as commonsense tells you.

CPN · 10-09-2009, 20:06

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So why would expect the cheapest nastiest DVD player you could find would be as good as a far more expensive one from a top manufacturer?

Because I would expect technology to have improved 5 years down the line, to the extent that even a cheap modern one should be able to match a much older Sony box! Clearly, my supposition was quite wrong!

Nigel Goodwin · 11-09-2009, 09:41

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Because I would expect technology to have improved 5 years down the line, to the extent that even a cheap modern one should be able to match a much older Sony box! Clearly, my supposition was quite wrong!

Very wrong - you're comparing a cheap and nasty device with a far more expensive one, quality doesn't always get 'better' it often just gets cheaper. Look at VCR's, prices tumbled, but quality completely disappeared.

CPN · 11-09-2009, 11:51

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Very wrong - you're comparing a cheap and nasty device with a far more expensive one, quality doesn't always get 'better' it often just gets cheaper. Look at VCR's, prices tumbled, but quality completely disappeared.

Good point, well made...
I have a Samsung VCR in the cupboard that is testament to that.

soulboy77 · 11-09-2009, 12:32

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Very wrong - you're comparing a cheap and nasty device with a far more expensive one, quality doesn't always get 'better' it often just gets cheaper. Look at VCR's, prices tumbled, but quality completely disappeared.

Yes, appears DVD players are going the same way. I've noticed a big drop in the number of 'decent' players available this year as the well known electronics manufacturers switch their attention to Blu-ray. With VCRs it was more of a gradual process but I suppose as Blu-ray players have incorporated DVD playback facilities, there is no incentive to maintain a large parallel range of DVD players as well.

TallDave · 11-09-2009, 16:25

Buy a Denon or an Oppo - give your TV something good to get its teeth into!!

Then at least it might be worth having a debate over whether the scaler in the DVD or the TV is better.

On the subject of HDMI "speed", most of the delays in signal switching are down to the HDCP content protection.

Orbitalzone · 13-09-2009, 09:56

I'm a still a bit perplexed why anyone who has the good sense to buy a W series Sony would be so audacious to then buy a Tevion to go with it!

You should be ashamed of yourself and sit in the naughty corner for the afternoon.

I've got the 32W4000 and have still yet to see anything much better around.... for the record, I found that my Panasonic DVD recorder gave far softer pictures on DVD via RGB scart compared to the Sony blu ray player via HDMI when playing the same DVD....the Blu ray (the awfully slow Sony BD350 in this case) gave far superior DVD playback results than the Panasonic DMRE10)

Nigel Goodwin · 13-09-2009, 12:40

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I'm a still a bit perplexed why anyone who has the good sense to buy a W series Sony would be so audacious to then buy a Tevion to go with it!

You should be ashamed of yourself and sit in the naughty corner for the afternoon.

I've got the 32W4000 and have still yet to see anything much better around.... for the record, I found that my Panasonic DVD recorder gave far softer pictures on DVD via RGB scart compared to the Sony blu ray player via HDMI when playing the same DVD....the Blu ray (the awfully slow Sony BD350 in this case) gave far superior DVD playback results than the Panasonic DMRE10)

BluRay players normally have very good scalers in them, even better than a W series Sony TV (which itself has a very good scaler). So you should expect them to be better via BluRay than a normal DVD player.

CPN · 13-09-2009, 15:41

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I'm a still a bit perplexed why anyone who has the good sense to buy a W series Sony would be so audacious to then buy a Tevion to go with it!

Ok, I'll try and explain that... I didn't buy a Tevion "to go with it" as you put it since it is already teamed up with one of my HXD860's (the other 860 is in the bedroom with an earlier Sony KDL-S26A12U). There are 5 other TVs of various flavours around the house (don't ask!) and the idea was to have a standalone DVD player with a built-in 5.1 decoder (already have the speaker/amp system), which the Tevion had, with at least "as good as" picture quality as the 860s manage. A portable DVD player that I can move about; if you like. Clearly, the Tevion was disappointingly short in the picture quality department (the 5.1 was good however). Since I knew that with Aldi, I wouldn't have a problem taking it back, it was a trial player....

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You should be ashamed of yourself and sit in the naughty corner for the afternoon.

Hopefully you'll modify that thought now...

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I've got the 32W4000 and have still yet to see anything much better around....

Absolutely agree!

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for the record, I found that my Panasonic DVD recorder gave far softer pictures on DVD via RGB scart compared to the Sony blu ray player via HDMI when playing the same DVD....the Blu ray (the awfully slow Sony BD350 in this case) gave far superior DVD playback results than the Panasonic DMRE10)

It looks like I may as well plump for a Blu-ray player now and I'll probably stick with the brand I've come to respect.... (and of course, they were the instigators of the Blu-ray standard anyway and will match my existing equipment in any event...)

Orbitalzone · 15-09-2009, 21:12

That's fair enough..... I'll withdraw my statement of shock and awe

Just whatever you do, don't buy a cheapy Blu Ray player unless it's a cheapy Sony 350 or newer.... my BDP300 takes an eternity to powerup and play (90 odd seconds from inserting a disc) the next model, the 350 and now the 360 supposedly load up far faster.

CPN · 15-09-2009, 22:49

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