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BPI Bullies Play Into Submission Over Non EU Sourced CDs


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Old 23-02-2004, 23:26
Everything Goes
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The BPI have come to an out of court settlement with Play.com over the sale of CDs sourced form outside the EU in a case similar to CD-Wow.

The BPI have been trumpeting their latest success and bemoaning the “Damage” done to the industry by Play and CD-Wow. (Who gives a f**k about the consumer)

"All British-based record companies and all retailers - offline or online - are adversely affected when product specifically designated for markets outside of Europe flows back into the UK.

"It is impossible to invest in, develop and market new British talent if we do not protect our legal rights to prevent parallel importing."

Next target Amazon.com?

BBC - Online CD seller in industry deal.
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Old 24-02-2004, 08:51
likescats
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It doesn't seem to have affected their prices at all.

Hmm the 'damage' that play and CD wow have done, I mean how dare they sell things cheaper and give the consumer a better deal
The BPI are a bunch of money grabbing, bullying gits.
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Old 24-02-2004, 09:42
andygrif
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Originally posted by grimfandango
It doesn't seem to have affected their prices at all.

Hmm the 'damage' that play and CD wow have done, I mean how dare they sell things cheaper and give the consumer a better deal
The BPI are a bunch of money grabbing, bullying gits.
Well I guess we could all see that one coming, and you can be sure that any others who are doing the same thing will be next in line (especially the smaller ones as they can't afford the lawyers).

The BPI's stance is unclear about importing CDs from companies based overseas....in the case of both Play and CD Wow they are UK/British companies that ship from abroad only. So right now it's unclear as to where Amazon.com stand.

Let me make sure that everyone knows....there is no offence in importing goods from abroad - quite the opposite, side from proscribed goods like pornography, guns, drugs, etc., you are perfectly entitled under the law of this country to import music.

The BPI is attempting to creating its own laws, outlawing such a practice - which in my opinion is anti-competitive - itself a criminal offence - and should be punished accordingly.

The message from consumers is clear - give us the music we want at a price we want to pay - then we will buy it. If the cartel of the BPI and its members continues to attempt to control the over-pricing of music then they will be the losers in the long-run.

When prices are at the right level, consumers will buy more music, even taking risks on some product that they wouldn't have thought about buying at £15. This was proven by the BPI's own figures last month - charting an increase in CD album sales, to their highest level ever.
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Old 24-02-2004, 09:54
likescats
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I presume that anti copy thing you get on some CD's is something to do with the BPI as well.
It's bad enough that we have to pay high prices because they say so. It's even worse when you can't actually play the CD you've bought
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Old 24-02-2004, 10:22
BrainDrain
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there aren't the words to describe the BPI without getting banned, malicious scum do?
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Old 24-02-2004, 10:42
Milky Joe
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Originally posted by grimfandango
I presume that anti copy thing you get on some CD's is something to do with the BPI as well.
It's bad enough that we have to pay high prices because they say so. It's even worse when you can't actually play the CD you've bought
That anti-copy thing must be a joke. I got a CD with it supposedly on it yesterday, yet i managed to copy it perfectly onto my PC, even just using standard windows media player! When i put it in it said "some files must be updated for you to play this cd". I simply clicked cancel and played it as normal!
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Old 24-02-2004, 12:08
mcfc2134
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I'm seriously thinking about writing to the BPI to ask to see their point on what there doing with play.com and cdwow. Surely the consumer has a right to buy a cd from wherever they choose? So why should the BPi stop it? Have they got the power too?

Also, haven't cdwow prices dropped back down to £8.99 again?
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Old 24-02-2004, 12:30
andygrif
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Originally posted by mcfc2134
I'm seriously thinking about writing to the BPI to ask to see their point on what there doing with play.com and cdwow. Surely the consumer has a right to buy a cd from wherever they choose? So why should the BPi stop it? Have they got the power too?

Also, haven't cdwow prices dropped back down to £8.99 again?
Yes the prices are the same as before, it's jus the the retailers will make less money now having to source within the EU. Also CD Wow are having problems with their new suppliers - causing long delays for customers ordering certain items. It would not surprise me if the BPI were behind those problems.
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Old 24-02-2004, 14:35
d'@ve
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You can import legitimately from most Countries outside the EU, I've just received a CD from New Zealand for £11 including postage (NZ is an *expensive* Country to buy from, Amazon.co.uk would have sold this to me as an official "Import" for £17 including postage). Delivery took 7 days

There should be no need for Companies like CDWow! in this day and age of the Internet. I'm sure I could match or beat CDWow! (now) if I imported US sourced stuff direct from the States - but not from Amazon.com (US) whose shipping costs are horrendously high. And there's nothing the BPI can do to stop me (or who i buy it from)...
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Old 24-02-2004, 16:01
andygrif
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Originally posted by d'@ve
You can import legitimately from most Countries outside the EU, I've just received a CD from New Zealand for £11 including postage (NZ is an *expensive* Country to buy from, Amazon.co.uk would have sold this to me as an official "Import" for £17 including postage). Delivery took 7 days

There should be no need for Companies like CDWow! in this day and age of the Internet. I'm sure I could match or beat CDWow! (now) if I imported US sourced stuff direct from the States - but not from Amazon.com (US) whose shipping costs are horrendously high. And there's nothing the BPI can do to stop me (or who i buy it from)...
Sadly, even though they are not targetting you directly, you and I are being penalised for wanting to enjoy and pay for music legitimately.

Interesting, for all the criticism they have received of late, the RIAA haven't attempted such a ridiculous infringement of free-trade laws like the BPI. The reason being is that Americans would hit back and put a stop to it before it had begun - where most Brits just bend over and let it happen.

I'm amazed that someone reasonably high-profile hasn't taken this issue on-board and encouraged an organised protest against the BPI for thier (in my opinion, unlawful) actions.
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Old 24-02-2004, 17:06
andymwalker
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Originally posted by d'@ve
You can import legitimately from most Countries outside the EU, I've just received a CD from New Zealand for £11 including postage (NZ is an *expensive* Country to buy from, Amazon.co.uk would have sold this to me as an official "Import" for £17 including postage). Delivery took 7 days

There should be no need for Companies like CDWow! in this day and age of the Internet. I'm sure I could match or beat CDWow! (now) if I imported US sourced stuff direct from the States - but not from Amazon.com (US) whose shipping costs are horrendously high. And there's nothing the BPI can do to stop me (or who i buy it from)...
Just out of interest, wheer di you get these CDs from? As a penny pinching student, i like a bargain
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Old 24-02-2004, 17:13
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I don't see how it can really affect CDWow and Play - Tesco sell CDs for £9.77 and they have store overheads to cover in that price too - so it seems reasonbale that Play can offer the same CDs online for £8.99.
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Old 24-02-2004, 17:48
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Originally posted by DWT
I don't see how it can really affect CDWow and Play - Tesco sell CDs for £9.77 and they have store overheads to cover in that price too - so it seems reasonbale that Play can offer the same CDs online for £8.99.
Tesco has huge buying power, the small online stores do not. In addition, supermarkets are able to operate on tiny margins that CD sales would offer them, becuase they know that most people who buy their music in there are probably also doing their full weekly shop - which will net the store something like 80% margin, if not higher, on many lines.
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Old 24-02-2004, 21:44
monkeysoup
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It is impossible to invest in, develop and market new British talent if we do not protect our legal rights to prevent parallel importing
Key word - "talent". Convince me that the artist gets less money if I, as a UK citizen buy a CD in, say, America (whether in person or online) than if I buy the UK version. Then convince me why I should care about the middlemen between me and the music I want to buy. Then fix your poorly run INTERNATIONAL business so the UK arm doesn't suffer. I'll buy the music I want to buy based on price, convenience and availability. Try and un-invent the sub-tenner price tag and see what it does to sales.
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Old 25-02-2004, 15:01
andygrif
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Originally posted by monkeysoup
Key word - "talent". Convince me that the artist gets less money if I, as a UK citizen buy a CD in, say, America (whether in person or online) than if I buy the UK version. Then convince me why I should care about the middlemen between me and the music I want to buy. Then fix your poorly run INTERNATIONAL business so the UK arm doesn't suffer. I'll buy the music I want to buy based on price, convenience and availability. Try and un-invent the sub-tenner price tag and see what it does to sales.
Was that the quote from the BPI...I seem to remember them saying something like that....

The reason I remember them saying it is becuase of how untrue it is. Let's take Robbie Williams as an example:

Robbie signs a reported £80m deal with EMI. Now that EMI is EMI UK (actually it's a subsidy of EMI UK, but let's not complicate it too much).

EMI UK own Robbie. EMI UK licenses Robbie to another part of the world, like a francise business. So let's say for example EMI UK licenses the manufacture and distribution of Robbie CDs in Asia, to EMI Asia.

EMI Asia, facing its own crisis (with that part of thr world being a hotbed of organised piracy - I can buy a pre-release DVD, fully authored, looks genuine from a Hong Kong market for £1.50 - but that's another story). So EMI Asia sell Robbie CDs to, say, CD Wow. CD Wow then sell them back to me in the UK.

The BPI say that becuase I indirectly bought my Robbie CD from an Asian supplier, there will be no money in the UK to fund new talent. Simply not true. This is becuase EMI Asia will pay a royalty to EMI UK, as Robbie still needs to be paid - this is done via the UK company. At this point, EMI UK take their cut from the money paid by Asia - which is then used (or not) to fund new talent in the UK.

I've probably made that all sound far more complicated than it really is, but clearly the BPI is again feeding us a diet of contradictory messages.

It was interesting, I read this week that the Head of PR/Communications for the BPI has quit this week. Frankly I'm not surprised, they should never have been allowed the job in the first place, in my opinion.

I mean, there's spin and then there's blatant lies.
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Old 26-02-2004, 17:44
DWT
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Originally posted by andygrif
Tesco has huge buying power, the small online stores do not. In addition, supermarkets are able to operate on tiny margins that CD sales would offer them, becuase they know that most people who buy their music in there are probably also doing their full weekly shop - which will net the store something like 80% margin, if not higher, on many lines.
But as a consumer if I see CDs selling for less than £10 in a supermarket then I expect to see similar prices elsewehere online or in stores. Most people don't give a toss about profit margins or loss-leaders they just want value for money and if tesco and play.com can offer CDs as cheaply as they do then thats where they'll buy them.

I can't remember the last time I bought a £13.99 CD album from HMV. No-one can seriously claim HMV or Virgin need to sell CDs at the prices they do - they are massive international chains selling CDs at ridiculously high prices. £16.99 for a back catalogue CD? No thanks! Their permanent "2 for £20" campaigns prove that they can sell them cheap when they feel like it!
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Old 27-02-2004, 10:04
andygrif
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Originally posted by DWT
But as a consumer if I see CDs selling for less than £10 in a supermarket then I expect to see similar prices elsewehere online or in stores. Most people don't give a toss about profit margins or loss-leaders they just want value for money and if tesco and play.com can offer CDs as cheaply as they do then thats where they'll buy them.
I completely agree, but there are still lots of people that continue to buy from places like Virgin and HMV at grossly infated margins. For example, I saw the new Funk & Soul Classics compilation last week on one brand of Virgin for 18.99 (for a double CD). The same CD is available at Sainsbury's for 13.99. That's an extra £5 pure profit into Virgin's coffers - not that I bourght it of course.

The problem is that the greater public continue to have the mentality of buying their music from music stores, but I can tell you that the music stores, HMV, Virgin are paying the same prices retail as Tesco.

I would rather the BPI spent a little more time and attention on these two companies, who are artificially keeping prices high.


I can't remember the last time I bought a £13.99 CD album from HMV. No-one can seriously claim HMV or Virgin need to sell CDs at the prices they do - they are massive international chains selling CDs at ridiculously high prices. £16.99 for a back catalogue CD? No thanks! Their permanent "2 for £20" campaigns prove that they can sell them cheap when they feel like it!
I can understand somewhat higher prices for some back catalogue product, there's less demand and there is storage costs to take into account. When it comes to the special offers like two for £20, this is generally driven by the labels who offer retail prices on those lines at a much lower cost.
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Old 27-02-2004, 10:47
BrainDrain
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I only pay £4.99 or so for my back catalogue titles at CD101. They have hundreds of titles for mega cheap prices.

No I dont work for them
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Old 27-02-2004, 13:11
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Originally posted by andygrif
Let me make sure that everyone knows....there is no offence in importing goods from abroad - quite the opposite, side from proscribed goods like pornography, guns, drugs, etc., you are perfectly entitled under the law of this country to import music.

The BPI is attempting to creating its own laws, outlawing such a practice - which in my opinion is anti-competitive - itself a criminal offence - and should be punished accordingly.

The message from consumers is clear - give us the music we want at a price we want to pay - then we will buy it. If the cartel of the BPI and its members continues to attempt to control the over-pricing of music then they will be the losers in the long-run.
I'm sure any economist would agree with you, and I certainly do. If they bring their prices in line with demand, they will maximise sales and profits.

Your comments on the legal issues are very interesting, but the BPI's action was taken and won on grounds of breach of copyright, which is existing legislation. Unfortunately I'm not so sure you're correct on this point - but I'd love to be proved wrong.

An interesting form of consumer action would be to organise a campaign to import music up to the personal limit allowed by law - or perhaps beyond it, and to pay any necessary excess in import taxes rather than to the record companies.
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Old 27-02-2004, 14:28
DWT
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Originally posted by andygrif


I can understand somewhat higher prices for some back catalogue product, there's less demand and there is storage costs to take into account. When it comes to the special offers like two for £20, this is generally driven by the labels who offer retail prices on those lines at a much lower cost.
There is a new-ish chain called Music Zone who sell back catalogue CDs at between £10 and £12 for full price titles and £5-£6 for mid-price ones. If they can sell for £5 less than HMV/Virgin on back catalogue, then you know you are being riped off by the bigger chains.

As for the multi-buy campaigns - they were created by HMV becuase it was the only way they could shift back catalogue in decent numbers once the intitial rush of people replacing vinyl collections with CD had died down in the mid 90s. Of course, now all chains do it and the labels are very much behind it because they know the only way to sell CDs is at cheaper prices (but it only suits them to do it when they can call it a "sale"and can control how many copies are avaialable to stores.)
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Old 27-02-2004, 14:47
andygrif
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Originally posted by Ruby_

Your comments on the legal issues are very interesting, but the BPI's action was taken and won on grounds of breach of copyright, which is existing legislation. Unfortunately I'm not so sure you're correct on this point - but I'd love to be proved wrong.

An interesting form of consumer action would be to organise a campaign to import music up to the personal limit allowed by law - or perhaps beyond it, and to pay any necessary excess in import taxes rather than to the record companies.
The problem is that the BPI's actions have not been tested in the contraints of British Law. Both of their recent 'vistories' have been out of court settlements, that both play.com CD WOW! have reached with the BPI.

It is only when the BPI actually end up in court within one of these operators that the rules may change, as the law is based on precedents.

They were citing the precident in the European courts that Levi's won in their case against Tesco, for importing jeans from the greay market in the US to sell in the UK stores.

However, I see a different situation in respect of both Play and CD WOW! Both of these companies are operating, with permission from the distributors (Tesco were acquiring Levi product from non-Levi sources in the US). Unlike Tesco, these two companies were not importing product into the UK for distribution, they were shipping them to your house direct from another country.

It is still very unclear whether a breach of copyright has taken place, which is why it was the preference of the BPI to reach an 'agreement' rather than test their theory in court, which could have turned out very embarassing for them, and cost a lot of money.
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Old 27-02-2004, 15:51
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Originally posted by andygrif
The problem is that the BPI's actions have not been tested in the contraints of British Law. Both of their recent 'vistories' have been out of court settlements, that both play.com CD WOW! have reached with the BPI.

It is only when the BPI actually end up in court within one of these operators that the rules may change, as the law is based on precedents.

They were citing the precident in the European courts that Levi's won in their case against Tesco, for importing jeans from the greay market in the US to sell in the UK stores.

However, I see a different situation in respect of both Play and CD WOW! Both of these companies are operating, with permission from the distributors (Tesco were acquiring Levi product from non-Levi sources in the US). Unlike Tesco, these two companies were not importing product into the UK for distribution, they were shipping them to your house direct from another country.

It is still very unclear whether a breach of copyright has taken place, which is why it was the preference of the BPI to reach an 'agreement' rather than test their theory in court, which could have turned out very embarassing for them, and cost a lot of money.
Oh I see.... thanks. More and more interesting. So it was the preference of the BPI to reach an agreement out of court? Hmm. I imagine those little operators would have had great trouble defending an expensive court case, and could have even been forced out of business - presumably exactly what the BPI wants - so if the BPI preferred to settle out of court that does suggest they lack confidence in their case.

I wonder whether it would be possible to apply pressure on the government to act. This outcome isn't in the interests of UK consumers, or as far as I can see, musicians. As several commentators have said it is very interesting that employees can be sourced offshore, but mass market commodities like CDs cannot.

I liked the look of this "shop around" flyer designed for handing out to HMV customers in Ireland. CD Wow may be forced to increase their prices but they'll still be offering much lower prices than HMV and Virgin, who deserve to lose a great deal of business. They just exploit people who aren't aware of the competition, and I can't believe their insane prices are justified by store overheads.
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Old 27-02-2004, 16:10
TenerC
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"It's even worse when you can't actually play the CD you've bought"

if you couldn`t play it, did you take it back for a refund?
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