To the person above, how the hell has Ne yo's solo career flopped

Three platinum albums under his belt. Several top 10 singles. Get the facts before claiming

Keisha seems to be in demand. I read another article today on her collab with Jay Sean. I am so glad this girl is wanted. It was a really kick in the teeth to her. I bet if Amelle had left, i bet Ne yo/Tim westwood support or a Jay Sean collab wouldn't have follow. I know she had a number 1 hit in the UK but it reminded me of what someone said on a previous thread, any girl could have sang that song. I could imagine any british singer or even American singing her one chorus that she only sings.

No 'proof' needed. A number of their songs were written solely by Keisha - I know Push the Button was. Mutya also wrote/co-wrote some. The rest of the girls sharing the credits was/is just record company politics. By the same token we could ask 'where is there proof that she couldn't be as successful?'

I think you'll find that the new Sugababes line-up will have all their material written for them now.

Not only that, it's a dreadful, dreadful song! Proof that getting to number one is no measure of how good a song is. And it got there on Tinchy's coattails anyway.

Dallas Austin wrote Push The Button.

Well I just googled and it says the group co-wrote it with him. I read at the time that it was semi-autobiographical (to Keisha) so I reckon the 'creative material' for the song came from her, and she more than any of them always had writing/co-writing/creative input, (which some interpret as bullying) into their material.

You reckon and 'fact' are two very different things.

Changing the odd word to get credits is not being a writer.

If it's semi-autobiographical, the song wouldn't even exist without her. Without an 'idea', there's nothing to write about, regardless of who writes the most words.

Darling. Beyonce says all her songs are personal to her and she never wrote most of them and has nearly been sued several times for it.

The Sugababes are the same. Adding a word isn't being a main writer. In that sense Keisha said she wrote most of Catfights which is seen as their weakest album and biggest flop. But we all know she didn't write most of it.

No one says she wrote most of it. We're saying she has done some writing...over and above what any of the others have done. And more importantly she's had creative input...which can be anything from coming up with an idea to actually writing or co-writing.

Quite what Beyonce has to do with it is beyond me. Does she own the writing credits to those songs? Not similar at all. Darling.

I was always under the impression that those who were named first in the writing credits are first because they've written most of the song no?!?!?

I mean i know myself that some songs keishas names first, heidi in a few but also their names are last on some of the songs?

That's what I thought too.

The reality is that songwriting credits for major artists are often driven by politics and money rather than the creative truth.

Pop_Art is quite right in saying that artists can change one word and demand a writing credit. Writers often give into this as the threat is very much 'Or else ...'. Or they're paid enough to go along with the artist's demands. Some writers put their foot down - I think I'm correct in saying Celine Dion was fingered for wanting a cut of writers' royalties a while ago (something along the lines of 'I'll record your song if you give me a share of the royalties).

We shall never know who did exactly what in the Sugababes' songs - and I'm not saying they're as bad as the example I mentioned - but I think it's telling that their writing credits are not, as far as I know, are confined to group members alone. They write with pretty established producers - Xenomania, Dallas Austin, Red One. Which says quite a lot in itself.

So I don't think whose name comes first says all that much: it'll be more about egos and money. Which, in the music business, is par for the cause.

Keisha got paid more than the other girls because she (co-)wrote and helped produced a lot of their songs, so...

Denial is probably the best example, Keisha essentially wrote the whole thing herself, then VV Brown tidied it, and then the others tweaked it.

Keisha hasn't written a song on her own. That's what I meant; where's the proof that she would be a songwriting powerhouse akin to Cathy Dennis when all Keisha's done is cowrite with other people and the amount of input is questionable?


You mean just like "Lush Life", "Soul Sound", "One Touch", "Shape", "Freak Like Me", "Supernatural", "Too Lost In You", "Gotta Be You", "Ugly", "It Ain't Easy", "Obsession", "About You Now", "Back When", "Surprise", "No Can Do", "Unbreakable Heart", "Every Heart Broken" and "Nothing's As Good As You" were all written by the band as well?! The Sugababes have had a history of having some of their songs written by others so this new line-up is no exception. Also, a number of tracks on their new album don't feature writing credits by any member - "Get Sexy" being a prime example. It seems the trend started years ago and is continuing on even with another line up change.

I never knew Keisha was responsible mainly for Button and Denial. They are their best songs to date for me.

Keisha has never written a song in her life Umbongo, Servalan and Pop Art are SPOT on.

After a couple of weeks, here is my take.....

See I think Keisha was involved in a small part of the writing but not as much as she makes out.

I do think Keisha / Mutya and Heidi had direction on the career when they came back from the first dropping. Over time the record co and management took over.

However when Mutya left, I think a lot was made of Keisha being the only original and she assumed the role of band boss and steered the group, in her own eyes. This probably upset heidi as they didn't get on and probably started to dig Keisha's grave with the record co.

I find it interesting that one one hand people are saying Sugababes lost their way musically and blame Mutya going/Heidi and Amelle joining but at the same time the songs and direction seem to be led by Keisha.

I actually think Keisha and Heidi have never got on from Heidi joining the band. Heidi has proved she will never stop being a sugababe (She'll be the one touring butlins with her sugababes lineup in years to come) and managed to swallow it and carry on for the good of the band. (Which Keisha probably respected) but there was no love lost between the two.


When Mutya left and Amelle joined and I think Amelle probably got on with Heidi and Keisha seperately and was the central ground between the two for a while.

Despite all her drama's, Keisha and Heidi have always seemed to back Amelle both professionally and privately and I don't think they would have done that if they did not like her a lot.


Then Amelle's relationship with Keisha broke down and because Amelle is volitile and Keisha is strong willed, it fell apart very quickly and they couldn't work together.
I wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of either of them.

I would imagine as the original Keisha thought she would the support of the RC and started making demands, upsetting the RC even more,

Coming back and starting to gig with the new album (I doubt they recorded the new album together) it spilled over and Amelle quit.

Heidi being close to Amelle couldn't stand the thought Amelle would leave.

For Heidi there were three scenario's with Amelle leaving;

1. Stay, not getting on with Keisha and wait for a new member to join and in the future what happened with Amelle happens again. Someone she likes leaves bcause they also cannot get on with the stong willed Keisha.
2. Stay, not getting on with Keisha. Someone new joins and Heidi is frozen out.
3. Decide enough is enough - and Heidi quits too.


The record company had too much tied up with the Jay -Z deal

They probably had some of their own gripe with a strong willed and passionate Keisha. If Keisha was the victim they would NEVER have let her go. Amelle would have been replaced by Jade but Heidi going too was a bridge too far. If it had happened after Catfights and Spotlights, they would have dealt with it. So there is some truth in the rumour about Keisha.

Losing the original Sugababe was a risk. Fans would go but with good music and a strong album they may come back.

If Keisha had stayed and Heidi and Amelle had gone. there would have been just as much publicity especially as Amelle would have sold her story to everyone who would have listened. Keisha being a "bully" would matter more than it does now and the US contract may have been in jeopardy - £ signs were seen and Keisha was ousted.

The record company obviously believe in the Sugababes brand and know where they want the band to go on otherwise they would have been dropped after the last album.


Anyways - it's all been a bit heavy. I have no idea. That is my latest theory.. but

here is a funny Sugababes clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVigZ...eature=related

^ To sum it up: all the good things about the Sugababes are due to Keisha and all the bad things are due to everyone else who has been in the band! LOL! Not digging at you personally, but I think the Keisha apologists wheel that to make it seem like she's been "controlling" the group since it started when it's actually their management and record labels that have.

And as I said, no proof required. You seem to be trying to propagate the theory that one can't go from co-writer to sole writer...which is ludicrous! But more importantly, you have absolutely no proof that she hasn't written any of the Sugababes' songs on her own, or written the larger proportion of some of their songs. Until you do, you're expressing your own personal bias.

Actually, given that none of the Sugababes' songs are solely credited to Keisha, the onus is actually on you to prove they are.

It's nothing to do with personal bias - we're talking facts here ...

Er, no, the key point being that it doesn't matter whether they are or they aren't...she can still go on to be a successful writer.

Those who are arbitrarily claiming she never wrote anything and pushing their claims as 'fact' need to prove these 'facts'.

But as it's a moot point, I couldn't give a toss either way. Thus I will not be proving anything, any time soon.:yawn:

Er - hello?!

But you were the person who said: "A number of their songs were written solely by Keisha - I know Push the Button was."

Nobody is saying she didn't write anything at all - but pretty much everyone is saying that if Keisha wrote Sugababes songs such as Push The Button on her own, then she'd be credited as such ... and she isn't.

So I'm sure you won' be proving anything. Because you can't!

Er, no, I stood corrected after it was pointed out she may not have.

You are saying it, but you alone doesn't exactly translate to 'everyone'. Not even if as many as 10 FMs say it, so you needn't bother coming back with a post count.

And do you understand what a moot point is? No, didn't think so.:sleep:

Re the whole 'who wrote what' debate - I saw a Sugababes programme/interview a few years ago (Keisha, Mutya, Heidi). On this, they talked about the writing process. They said that once they had a chorus and melody, they would each go away by themselves and write a verse each. Simple. Then they would reconvene and finish the song with the producers. You can see this especially in e.g., Follow Me Home - which is about Mutya's daughter. Also in 'Ugly'. Each verse is personal.

I think they came up with the chorus along whoever else was producing it.

Can't see that happening whatsoever with Version 4.0

Do you hate on everyone OP??

No i do not, what makes you wonder that?