There's auto, and there's +X minutes.

What do they do?

I've found +X minutes can cut the end off very late-running programmes on BBC One (because I need ten minutes, but only have the option of + five minutes maximum), whereas auto doesn't work well with channel five.

What I think I really want is "start five minutes earlier than the EPG says, stop ten minutes later than the EPG says, and if the broadcaster says it's even later, or moved to another day / channel, record that too".

i.e. assume that the broadcaster will get it wrong!

How can I get close to this? Because with the options available, it seems I will miss programmes on BBC One, or channel five.

Cheers,
David.

If you have auto set to on time or to padding it will follow the accurate recording codes. If you edit a recording schedule and set your own times it won't follow epg changes but will record when you say, note you can set a repeat pattern for these to simulate a series recording (usefull when the broadcaster often gets the codes wrong). Not that if you set autopadding to other than on time and off time it messes up ITV HD recordings

Now I'm confused.

If the EPG originally says 9pm - 10pm, but the actual broadcast (with correct information from the broadcaster, for the sake of argument) ends up as being 9:02 - 10:07pm, I assume "auto" would give me exactly that?

But what would an automatic padding of five minutes at the end give me?
9:00-10:05?
9:02-10:07?
9:02-10:12?
or something else?

Really appreciate any clarification!

Cheers,
David.

I think Graham is getting slightly confused with the menu terminology of the Freeview PVRs. It's easily done when you are giving advice in both forums.

The option for Accurate Recording (AR) is Auto on the HDR (it is On Time for the Freeview PVRs). So, I hope that clears that up

In terms of AR, it doesn't use the EPG, it relies on a (more accurate and more frequently updated) different data stream, the EITp/f, which the broadcaster updates the running status change of the programme, which tells the box when it has moved from future status to present(ly) running.

AutoPadding (AP) just sets the -/+ minutes you have in the Menu to the EPG time. Now here is the rub. There has been some debate, but I'm not sure anyone has conclusively tested (I am a firm AR user, so not willing to reset my box up to test on this occasion).

The debate is, does the box add the padding to the EPG time at the time of setting, and then treat it like a manual timer, or does it check for EPG updates within its T-15 window, and then add its padding to the new EPG time if the broadcaster has updated it in time?

Bear in mind that broadcasters do not adjust EPG in the same way as the EITp/f, but only probably adjust it for major shifts in the schedule.

Instinctively, I think it would cope with these major shifts (as long as the broadcaster adjusts the EPG before the T-15 window), and add the padding to the new EPG time. But, I've never tested this, nor seen conclusive results.

Feel free to test & report back, I would be interested.

Rgds.


Les.

Sorry,

I forgot to put in the bit about your timings.

If I'm correct, the broadcaster would not update the EPG for such a minor shift, so you would just get your +5mins (I presume you are not setting any "Early" Start padding?) using AP, so 9:00 - 10:05.

BTW, I don't miss much, if anything at all using AR.

Rgds.


Les.

I put up a similar thread, because with Sky it ads time to the EPG, but Humax told me that if I add any padding and the programme is say 15mins late you will lose the end of the programme so just leave it on auto.

...or be given the option (by the box) to pad by 10 or 15 minutes!

It's 320GB - there's not that much SD TV I want to watch in a year - but what I do want to watch, I don't want to miss the end of.

And neither does my 3 year old daughter. And "auto" doesn't work with Channel five's milkshake.

So it's miss Noddy (with auto), or miss Strictly (with +5), or mess around with the box changing the settings every Saturday and Monday.

It almost makes a series link useless.

Sorry - but it's frustrating that so many things on (what I consider) such an expensive box are so limiting.

Cheers,
David.

Just make a single resevation for each of the above recordings and then edit them to suit the broadcast with added minutes where you need them and then set the reservation as a repeat event.

edit: better still leave Strictly as an auto record and just edit the Milkshake/Noddy reservation

The fault here is with the broadcasters that do not implement Freesat+ (or Freeview+ on the other platform, for that matter) Accurate Recording properly.

You bought a box which conforms to the Freesat+ specifications, which includes Accurate Recording. Accurate Recording (Auto) is meant for exactly these situations. The broadcasters start programmes early/late, and finish early/late for any number of reasons. They are supposed to change the status flags on those programmes as they make changes.

You would probably have got Strictly OK on Auto, because by & large the BBC manage this bit (not necessarily other bits) quite reliably.

Five are absolutely hopeless. They even emailed me after much complaining of their prolonged "AR Testing", to tell me they had implemented it. Pah !! They haven't done a good job, but even worse, it's not consistent across their channels or even programmes.

If you want someone to complain to, tell Five that their Milskhake/Noddy programme fails to conform to Freesat+ specs as it sends the "Stop Trigger" too early. If people don't complain to the broadcasters, they won't do anything.

As I've said before AR (Auto) works pretty reliably for me. The one programme I still record on Five, I set a manually padded repeating timer for, as GC has suggested (although I still email Five about their incompetence). I only had one other manual timer on my box (which is full of Series Linked AR Timers) which was a channel4 programme but has now finished.

Rgds.


Les..

C4 just cannot get Grand Designs correct.

Well, yes, but we're talking about channel four and channel five - two fairly mainstream UK broadcasters. And we're talking about a box made for the UK market.

So (IMHO!) it needs some usable work around.

I'll try the single reservation - though it sounds like more work than programming an old VHS machine! Plus the kids channels move stuff around quite a bit - it'll be "wrong" fairly quickly I fear.

Cheers,
David.

Yes they are two of the main PSB channels and should act more responsibly in adhering to specs & conventions.

Yes the box is made for the UK Market, and adheres to those specs.

The workround for the broadcasters ineptitude is the Manual Timer. It's very easy, much easier than an old VCR. Get the programme you want highlighted in the EPG and press OK. Then go into the Schedule and Edit it. You'll get a box come up with all the parameters pre-filled for you, just arrow down and change the times for an early start and a late finish, and then choose the appropriate Repeat option, don't forget to Save.

If it is a middle of the day prog, and you have no other programmes recording around those times to Clash with, and are worried about a major shift, then puts lots of padding in to start & stop times.

Rgds.

Les.

Does the humax not allow a manual recording?

I know the epg is easier, however for any prog that is likely to overrun excessively (say extra time on footie, or 20/20 cricket), I set a manual recording to ensure I do not miss the end (using a sky box of course)

I thought setting 5minutes to the front and end of a program would sort out any issues, and in most cases it does. However, the Humax does a weird thing which wasn't a problem on my Sky box.

With Sky, if I recorded two shows, say on the same channel, one after the other, it will begin to record the 2nd show with the other tuner. That way, the padding existed for both shows being recorded. But the Humax doesn't seem to do this. It seems to record both shows with the same tuner. So, if I set a 5minute padding, and both shows began and ended on time, I would record the last five minutes of the first show and the beginning of the second on one recording, and then the 2nd show would miss the first 5 minutes.

Really silly since this could have easily been solved by using both tuners. Something the Sky box has been doing for years.

Re the above two posts.

Stop trying to compare Sky & Freesast+.

Sky controls its own playout systems, and only pads out to its own EPG times. It doesn't have Accurate Recording at all., or even the concept of AR.

The Humax is quite advanced in its use of 2 tuners, this is nothing to do with the matter in hand.

For Freesat viewers, I recommend sticking wih AR ( Sky has its own problems with recording back to back with EPG padding).

If you encounter a broadcaster problem with a particular problem, then set a Manual Timer, which is very easy on the HDR.

Rgds.


Les.

^^ I appreciate your help, but the comparison was valid. On my sky box, I would not loose the beginning of the next show because it would use the 2nd tuner to start the 2nd recording. On the Humax, or at least mine, it only uses one of the tuners in this situation and I miss the beginning of the next show.

I would be interested to know if your Humax does this differently.

I also recently tried setting completely to auto and lost the beginning or ending of almost every show, so auto simply doesn't seem to work for me. If it is for you, I would love to know why there is a difference.

I wasn't really comparing the 2 - just trying to ascertain if humax can do a manual record - as it can, this is obviously the way to ensure you get all of a particular programme!

Also just to correct you - sky doens't have any problem at all with back to back recordings with the new epg.

As you are obviously well versed with the humax - can you answer this question.

Can you partially delete a recording? (ie watched 1st half of a football match - want to watch 2nd half at a later date, can you delete the 1st half of the recording leaving more space for future recordings? (my panny hdd dvd recorder can do this - I find it quite useful)

No it can't. It would be quite hard to do technically as the system uses a pair of sidecar files in addition to the video data. These provide services like chapters and thumbnails.

Reading your post carefully, you are recording back to back programmes on the same channel using Autopadding?

You're saying that the first 5 minutes of the second programme is present on the first recording, and is missing from the second recording? If this is the case the programmes did not end and then start on time to the billed time.

The Humax intelligently uses its 2 tuners to maximum advantage. For back to back same channel recordings using Autopadding, it purposely drops the middle padding so it only has to use 1 tuner, leaving the other free for more recordings. It knows you are not going to lose anything as anything crossing the end/start time will be present on one or the other recordings. With Sky using 2 tuners for this, you cannot record anything else at the same time.

Mine does not do this, because I don't use Autopadding, I am a long time confirmed AR user, which I have tested to death in comparison with other PVRs and found it to be remarkably accurate and consistent.

Losing the start or end of "almost every show" does not sound right, which channels/progs in particular?. You may be getting clashes - are you sure you have full 2 cable/tuner functionality? (I take it you do have a dual/quad LNB with 2 cables coming into the box?).

I see from your other thread, you are going to try a Factory Reset, if you haven't done this yet, try these tests :-

2 Tests for 2 tuner capability :-

Set a recording reservation on 104, can you set a recording on 136 at the same time as 104? If you can, then you must have 2 tuner capability. (104 is low band horizontal and 136 is one of the few channels on high band vertical). Stop these recordings.

Now, go to 951 BBC 1 CI and start an instant recording, go to 108 BBC HD and start another instant recording. Now tune in to any other channel and press pause. If you can pause a 3rd channel your stb is working correctly, with full 2 cable/2tuner functionality, if not you need to do a factory reset. (You can record two channels at the same time using just one tuner if they are one the same transponder, so if a "friendly" combination of channels is used it is not a true test).

But I repeat, you should not be having these problems with AR, but see my previous comments re C5, and to a lesser extent C4.

Rgds.

Les.

It's not intelligent at all - it does exactly what ovbg says, which is stupid! What's the point of holding a tuner "in reserve", i.e. unused, when the box is switched off or playing a recording?!

Worse still, if you manual record (i.e. just hit record while you're watching it) a programme before one that's set to record automatically on the same channel, and pad that manual recording by loads (which you can do), it'll put a huge amount of the second programme at the end of the first - and only at the end of the first! And it won't warn you!

And when you come to play back the second programme, it tells you there was a clash, and loads of it is missing. Except there wasn't a clash (one tuner sat unused!), and it's not really missing if you know where to look for it and haven't deleted the first programme.


Sorry - I'm getting really frustrated by this box.

And the idea that it abides strictly by the specifications, so that's OK, isn't an answer. For one thing, it has many other faults which have nothing to do with "the broadcasters" abusing the specifications, and for another, it should be fit for purpose.

If someone invented an automatic car which happily ran straight over push-bikes if they were on a motorway because "the driving specification says push-bikes shouldn't be on the motorway" it wouldn't be fit for purpose. You've got to anticipate reality, and work with it.

Does anyone seriously expect all channels on Freesat to update their now/next data (or whatever it is) 100% correctly all of the time? No. So a Freesat PVR has got to give the user some options to work around this. Not be implemented in a way that ensures that any mistake by the broadcasters almost ensures that you'll miss the programme.

Cheers,
David.

Edit:Yah, Sky bug already mentioned. Don't forget to mention it's still with 90% of subscribers after two years and the fix may possibly be even worse.

The workaround is to set padding to zero at both ends.

But anyway more on-topic:Surprisingly despite using no padding for about as long as the bug has existed I almost never lose anything of any importance. Sometimes a few seconds of the 'in last week's episode..' and perhaps I'm losing the closing credits.

So if all else fails you might find that worth trying.

As a new user, I was confused by the fact that the printed HDR manual uses the phrase 'On time' and my on-screen display says 'Auto'.

I assume they are the same thing? Have I got an old manual?

Yes same thing

You have the same manual as I do and even the picture on p44 says On Time and so does the latest download

http://www.humaxdigital.com/global/p...9-0624_low.pdf

It's a small screw up

Thanks, Graham.

Even without that screw up, it has to be just about the worst-written manual I've ever read - and I've read hundreds!