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Some dSLR queries
EDN1
05-11-2009
Hi all. I've been reading some of the recent dSLR threads on here and whilst some have been helpful none have quite managed to answer the questions I myself want answers to.

I have a Panasonic FZ18 at the moment and whilst it's a good camera with a degree of manual control over it I find that far too often there is too much noise in photos for my liking. (btw I should point out that I am in no way a novice with digital cameras however I have no knowledge of dSLR cameras specifically)

So first of all. I do my in depth research as we all should but time and again when reading reviews for " Entry level " dSLR type cameras I find the reviewers always finds something to pick at with the camera body itself. I don't dispute that the glass is the main thing here but there has to be a body that is above all the others in some way or other. I find it quite off putting just trying to decide on what body to get because of this!

Second of all, and this one is an important one. Peope say it's all about the glass but to what extent. By this I mean If say I myself went for a Nikon dSLR what are restrictions with the lenses. Old/new only Nikon ones or third party types that kind of thing (and this applies to all brands of dSLR cameras and the glass/lenses)

I basically want/need to know the ins and outs of limitations after buying the body itself. One feature I consider a must is Live View. Apart from that some kind of vibration reduction would also be a good thing either built in or within the lense.

So far I've looked at the Pentax K-m. Canon EOS 1000D. Nikon D60/D3000 and some of the newer Sony models.

It's a minefield of information and I like to know as much as I possibly can before buying one. Cost of lenses, what I can and cannot buy because it will or won't fit the camera bought that kind of stuff.

I understand they are called Entry leel for a reason of course and I also realise that spending more would be of benefit to myself but cost is a big factor. At the moment £400 is my maximum budget.

Thanks for any help and sorry for the long post
john176bramley
06-11-2009
Originally Posted by EDN1:
“
One feature I consider a must is Live View. Apart from that some kind of vibration reduction would also be a good thing either built in or within the lense.

So far I've looked at the Pentax K-m. Canon EOS 1000D. Nikon D60/D3000 and some of the newer Sony models.
”

I'll address the points you made about live view and image stabilisation.

1. Only the Pentax and Sony models offer in-body stabilisation (the cameras will be stabilised with any lens you buy). Canon and Nikon cameras rely on lens stabilisation (not all lenses you can buy will have stabilisation).

2. Live view is implemented differently Sony + Pentax vs. Canon + Nikon.

Canon + Nikon - Live view only really works when using a tripod because the auto focus method in LV mode is incredibly slow, you won't be taking photos of anything that's moving using live view.

Sony + Pentax - the latest offerings from Sony and Pentax have the same LV system as Cannon and Nikon but they also have a second LV mode which works much the same as LV works in a P&S and is therefore suitable for taking handheld photos of moving subjects. Only the Sony A500 and A550 have the dual LV modes, other Sony models, A330, A380, etc have the fast LV mode only.

Because of a DSLRs better viewfinder you'll probably find yourself using the viewfinder a lot more than you'll use LV, so it's not as important as it is with a P&S.

The entry level DSLR offerings from all companies are all good. The Canon + Nikon offerings are considered to have slightly better high ISO performance, but the difference isn't that big. The Sony + Pentax models have in body stabilisation and fast LV mode but the Canon and Nikon kit lenses are all stabilised and as I've said you probably will use the viewfinder for most of your shots.

There is no perfect DSLR, they all have their pros and cons but I think you'll be happy with any of the current offerings. Top quality lenses cost a lot (certainly more than an entry level body) but I'd stick with the kit lens to start off with and see how you get on. If you get serious about photography you can worry about saving up for expensive glass in the future but you can still take brilliant photos with a cheap entry level camera and kit lens and is a different world compared to a P&S.

Don't be surprised if your DSLR photos aren't as good as your P&S ones to begin with, you need to learn how to use a DSLR, but once you do I think you'll be happy with your results.
TerraCanis
06-11-2009
Originally Posted by john176bramley:
“Because of a DSLRs better viewfinder you'll probably find yourself using the viewfinder a lot more than you'll use LV, so it's not as important as it is with a P&S.
.”

Call me a Luddite if you will, but I'd go so far as to say that, even with the autofocus speed issue resolved, using LV isn't suitable for handheld use, and the viewfinder should almost always be first choice.

("Almost" because there are almost always exceptions to every rule. Even that one).

My thinking is along the lines that when you're holding the camera up to your eye, it's in quite a stable position. Hold the camera arms' length to read the information off the screen, and it's going to be a lot less easy to hold it steady. Added to that, when tracking a moving object, I find it much easier to work out which way the camera should be pointing if I'm really looking at the subject both through the camera and past the camera with the other eye.

To the OP - My own preference would be to go for the Canon or the Nikon. Both manufacturers have good reputations and I'd judge the performance of either a Canon or a Nikon bodies or lens to be equivalent to the other's offering at the same level. Not that you'll ever get some of the more dedicated users to admit that!

Something else to bear in mind is the layout of the controls and menus and the general "feel" of the camera in your hands. Do you know anyone who already has a camera of one of the types you're considering? If so, would they let you handle it and take a few photos so that you can get an idea of how well you'd get on with it? Even if it's not of exactly the same model, manufacturers tend to have their own particular way of doing things, and that might give you an idea of whether it would suit.
EDN1
06-11-2009
Thank you both for the input.

Whilst it appears that using the viewfinder is the best way forward I just have this thing about not using it, in that I have an inexplicable hatred for it. I much prefer using the screen to view and frame my shots, I have and use a tripod when required with my P&S so I have that area sorted.

I think my concern is that with whatever camera I purchase I will have to buy kit/lesnses and so forth solely from that company, lets say Nikon. I have always liked Nikon cameras as it goes and rate them highly.

My first point and shoot was a Fuji, my next one was a tiny nikon and it was amazing and in some ways I feel it took better photos of BOTH of my current Panasonic digital cameras, one is a TZ5 and the other is an FZ18. You can see also by that how I have one pocket sized P&S and one "Bridge" type camera.

So let me get this right. Lets say I bought a Sony dSLR. I would be restricted to lenses for that brand, is that correct ? and so forth with the likes of Canon and Nikon ? Or are there third parry lenses that might be suitable alternatives? My thinking is here is pretty much down to cost. If I buy into the Sony system, well Sony aren't know for being cheap! (but then again neither will any other glass from other brands hm)

One point stands out, high ISO performance, and it was something I did pick up on in my research. It's something I would well take on board when making my final choice. Sadly though I don't know anyone with a dSLR but I can easily take a trip to my local Currys/Jessops or John Lewis to handle the camera and "Get a feel for it".

If for a second we said that I would never use the viewfinder would that change the reommendation of which camera to go for in your opinions ?

I think that for a few differing features what's been/being said across ththe internet is that it's ALL about the glass/lense with the body being a small part of it and which ever body you get you will inevitbly invest in better glass thus improving the cameras performance all round . . . is that correct ?
The Sack
06-11-2009
Originally Posted by EDN1:
“So first of all. I do my in depth research as we all should but time and again when reading reviews for " Entry level " dSLR type cameras I find the reviewers always finds something to pick at with the camera body itself.”

The problem with this is it is because they are comparing it against a body higher up the range, my 350D took images that were for all intents and purposes identical to the image off my 20D and 40D, my daughters 500D takes images which are equally as good. However now i have had a few years using the 20D and 40D i find using the 500D of my daughters incredibly frustrating and the simple reason is i am used to the 20D and 40D and how the controls are set out. I could pick flaws in the 500D body for an hour but it is only because i am used to the control methods of body's further up the range which are more ergonomic and prove much faster in use. If the only camera i had used was my original 350D i would find the 500D a walk in the park to use.

They do this with lenses as well, its ok a reviewer saying a lens performs optically badly when all he or she uses i L lenses. If you are used to such lenses anything less is going to seem poor but if you are going from a compact to a DSLR with a kit lens on it you are going to be highly delighted.

They are generally not comparing like with like.
TerraCanis
06-11-2009
Originally Posted by EDN1:
“Thank you both for the input.

So let me get this right. Lets say I bought a Sony dSLR. I would be restricted to lenses for that brand, is that correct ? and so forth with the likes of Canon and Nikon ? Or are there third parry lenses that might be suitable alternatives? My thinking is here is pretty much down to cost. If I buy into the Sony system, well Sony aren't know for being cheap! (but then again neither will any other glass from other brands hm)”

To an extent. It's true that each manufacturer has its own proprietary lens mount, so that with a Sony camera you're restricted to using lenses with the Sony mount, and with a Canon camera you're restricted to using lenses with the Canon mount.

However, there are other manufacturers (Tamron and Sigma being the names that spring to mind) that make lenses made with those proprietary mounts. If you go to a photographic dealer's website you can look up, for example, a Tamron 50-200mm lens and see that it's available in "Canon fit", "Nikon fit", "Sony fit" and so on.

My impression is that third party lenses for Canon and Nikon are more readily available than those for Sony or Pentax, but as I say that's purely an impression, not the result of a rigorous survey.

Sometimes dealers will offer kits that contain a particular manufacturer's body combined with a compatible third party lens.

Originally Posted by EDN1:
“If for a second we said that I would never use the viewfinder would that change the reommendation of which camera to go for in your opinions ?”

I'll have to leave that one to others to answer, as I've never really got on with viewscreens. Maybe they've improved in recent years, but my experience is mostly limited to trying to use one in bright sunlight and not being able to see a thing!

Originally Posted by EDN1:
“I think that for a few differing features what's been/being said across ththe internet is that it's ALL about the glass/lense with the body being a small part of it and which ever body you get you will inevitbly invest in better glass thus improving the cameras performance all round . . . is that correct ?”

I think that saying it's all about the glass is an oversimplification. Yes, with a better quality lens, the final pictures will be sharper and less affected by things like colour fringes. If you're a professional photographer whose pictures are destined to end up as a 40" x 32" poster, or as a magazine cover, that matters. If you're a really keen amateur entering competitions, it might matter. For someone pursuing photography as a hobby, the kind of lens that comes as standard with the camera should give perfectly acceptable results. Maybe you will want to upgrade the lens at some point in the future, but I don't think it's inevitable!
gemma-the-husky
06-11-2009
out of interest are the lens fittings the same as optical lenses for film cameras (i know the focal lengths arent the same)

eg could you use a Pentax K mount from a film camera, on a Dslr
The Sack
06-11-2009
Yes if the DSLR uses a K Mount. All of my L lenses are EF mount which was brought in to play in 1987 and all EF mount lenses work on all Canon DSLR bodys.
varialectio
06-11-2009
A couple of observations on you not using the viewfinder.


My Canon (400D) has a matrix of LEDs in the viewfinder. When you do a half press to focus, some of them flash to show which bits of the scene the camera has focussed on. If it's not what you want, you can roll the controller wheel to pick which part you want the camera to concentrate on. Especially useful if you get creative with off-center subjects. I don't suppose you'll get that on a live view display.


A second point is that you would probably want to block off the eyepiece - Canons come with a little plastic cover. Otherwise light entering the camera from here can throw off the exposure metering. It's recommended for tripod work anyway when your head isn't shielding the eyepiece.


You also mentioned high-ISO performance and complained in your first post about noise in the image. Why do you want to shoot with high settings as that will always lead to poor noise?
john176bramley
06-11-2009
Originally Posted by TerraCanis:
“My thinking is along the lines that when you're holding the camera up to your eye, it's in quite a stable position. Hold the camera arms' length to read the information off the screen, and it's going to be a lot less easy to hold it steady. Added to that, when tracking a moving object, I find it much easier to work out which way the camera should be pointing if I'm really looking at the subject both through the camera and past the camera with the other eye.”

I agree.


Originally Posted by The Sack:
“Yes if the DSLR uses a K Mount. All of my L lenses are EF mount which was brought in to play in 1987 and all EF mount lenses work on all Canon DSLR bodys.”

This also applies to the Sony\Minolta mount. The Nikon entry level DSLRs don't have a focusing motor in their bodies so you are restricted to more modern Lenes that have a motor built into them.

Originally Posted by EDN1:
“If for a second we said that I would never use the viewfinder would that change the reommendation of which camera to go for in your opinions ?”

If you're going to use the LV for most of your shooting then the Nikon and Canon cameras are of no use to you IMO. I still think you'll use the viewfinder most of the time though.
EDN1
09-11-2009
Originally Posted by varialectio:
“A couple of observations on you not using the viewfinder.


My Canon (400D) has a matrix of LEDs in the viewfinder. When you do a half press to focus, some of them flash to show which bits of the scene the camera has focussed on. If it's not what you want, you can roll the controller wheel to pick which part you want the camera to concentrate on. Especially useful if you get creative with off-center subjects. I don't suppose you'll get that on a live view display.


A second point is that you would probably want to block off the eyepiece - Canons come with a little plastic cover. Otherwise light entering the camera from here can throw off the exposure metering. It's recommended for tripod work anyway when your head isn't shielding the eyepiece.


You also mentioned high-ISO performance and complained in your first post about noise in the image. Why do you want to shoot with high settings as that will always lead to poor noise?”

Originally Posted by john176bramley:
“I agree.




This also applies to the Sony\Minolta mount. The Nikon entry level DSLRs don't have a focusing motor in their bodies so you are restricted to more modern Lenes that have a motor built into them.



If you're going to use the LV for most of your shooting then the Nikon and Canon cameras are of no use to you IMO. I still think you'll use the viewfinder most of the time though.”

Hi guys, sorry for the late reply.

The two quotes above in particular I wanted to reply to. Firstly varialectio. What I meant was that I am not happy with the amount of noise I get with my FZ18 and I have done a lot of testing with it to try to eliminate as much noise as I possibly can but I still am not happy. (I should also point out that 99% of the time I shoot at ISO 100)

Second to that I have read various comments (ok perhaps they should be taken with a pinch of salt) saying that particular cameras have better ISO performance so I was thinking that I might well be better going for a camera that is going to give me the best for my money. The camera in question was a Canon if I remember correctly.

John, you mention you don't think it would be worth my while going for a Canon or Nikon If I am going to use Live View most of the time. Can I ask why that is ?

I am also trying to see how readily available lenses are around the high street shops and what the pricing is like for each brand.
john176bramley
09-11-2009
Originally Posted by EDN1:
“
John, you mention you don't think it would be worth my while going for a Canon or Nikon If I am going to use Live View most of the time. Can I ask why that is ?
”

The Canon and Nikon LV system uses contrast detection autofocus which means they take 3 seconds + to achieve focus. The Sony and Pentax LV uses a different autofocus system which is much much faster.

If you're taking a landscape photo on a tripod the Nikon and Canon LV system is ideal, if you're shooting anything that moves it's useless.
EDN1
09-11-2009
Originally Posted by john176bramley:
“The Canon and Nikon LV system uses contrast detection autofocus which means they take 3 seconds + to achieve focus. The Sony and Pentax LV uses a different autofocus system which is much much faster.

If you're taking a landscape photo on a tripod the Nikon and Canon LV system is ideal, if you're shooting anything that moves it's useless.”

Thank you for explaining that John. I was watching some video reviews on Youtube after I posted my last reply and I noted that " Contrast based detection " was mentioned however I had no idea what it actually ment, though I had an idea of what it might do. I was on the right lines.

From the reviews I watched last night it came down to the Canon EOS 1000D and the Sony A330. The Canon seems to produce better quality photos but the Sony seems to have better all round specs.

I also had a look around Argos/Currys/Jessops/John Lewis to price all the lenses available to get a feel for the prices, including the Tamron and Sigma lenses. Seemed quite pricey but I assume as ever you get what you pay for with them.

I'm a bit disappointed though as it looks like due to an unforeseen circumstance I won't be able to buy a dSLR for a while now but at least it gives me more time to learn about them and hopefully watch the prices slide a bit more if nothing else.

What else is there I should know about dSLR cameras ? Know of any good websites that explain in good detail about them ?
john176bramley
09-11-2009
I think the best way to learn is to use the DSLR but if you get the Sony I can recommend this E-book , quite pricey but well worth it.

When you do get around to getting a DSLR this website will get you the cheapest prices for camera bodies and lenses.
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