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What is 'Punk'? |
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#1 |
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Join Date: Feb 2003
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What is 'Punk'?
As in so many threads posted in the music bit, I have seen so many different views on what Punk is. One person says Blink-182 is punk. Another says Busted is punk. Then someone oldskool say neither of these are punk.
So lets lay get the cards on the table! Who do you think is 'punk' and why? What bands are true punk bands? Are 'punk' bands sekllouts if they sign to a major lable even if they are a good band (Rancid Basicly, what is PUNK to you? |
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#2 |
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You might like to take a look at this discussion about this subject from the Nottingham University Punk Society
http://www.punksoc.co.uk/forum Has all the answers you need, including whether cheese is more punk than ham. Uses some good analogies
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#3 |
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'Punk' is a bloody good track by Ferry Corsten
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#4 |
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punk is an underground sound,originally an attempt to capture the anarchic spirit of 50's rock'n'roll(early elvis,jerry lee lewis,buddy holly,gene vincent etc).this is why the singers in 70's punk bands had silly names.in the 50's/60's there were singers like marty wilde,adam faith,rory storm,i.e.a wholesome first name and a surname denoting some personal quality.add some 70's irony and you get richard hell,johnny rotten et al.musically ,as i said ,it uses the basic bass-drums -guitar of rock'n'roll.in the US today,loads of folks listen to raw hillbilly and punk as they can see one in the other.green day radiohead etc may have punkish images sometimes but their stuff is 'rawk'.real punk is musically simple,epitomised by the pistols.
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#5 |
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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The two definitions I usually come across are punk as a musical style (eg. Ramones, Clash etc.). Or punk as an attitude, which could embrace any musical style really. Personally I'm not bothered. If I like it, it doesn't matter what over people want to call. Even 'crap'.
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#6 |
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I've never understood why people think punk was so important and revolutionary. People say that it stuck two fingers up at the Establishment, but so did The Stones and The Who more than ten years earlier.
Plus, if it was so revolutionary in the late 70s, why were Phil Collins, Wham! and Dire Straits so successful in the 80s? |
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#7 |
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Quote:
Originally posted by bapak I thought Radiohead were usually considered more "prog" than "punk"?
radiohead etc may have punkish images sometimes but their stuff is 'rawk'. |
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#8 |
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lots of people i know like radiohead for their 'attitude' and thus see them as punk,i agree musically they are closer to prog rock .
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#9 |
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Okay, that's enough about Radiohead. Quote:
Originally posted by Marillion fan: The reason punk died, or at least became less popular around 1980 (although there were still brilliant punk bands in the '80s, like Dead Kennedys) was, I think, because it had been popular for a few years and was getting stale and tired; some bands were selling out or splitting up, Sex Pistols were killing themselves, that kind of thing. Or to put it another way, they fought the law and the law won.I've never understood why people think punk was so important and revolutionary. People say that it stuck two fingers up at the Establishment, but so did The Stones and The Who more than ten years earlier. Plus, if it was so revolutionary in the late 70s, why were Phil Collins, Wham! and Dire Straits so successful in the 80s? The reason it became popular wasn't just that punk opposed the establishment, but that it was the antidote to the social climate and music of the time. Kids who didn't want to listen to Gary Glitter or (even more foul) Genesis![]() were attracted to punk.Yes, music mostly returned to its previous crappy state after punk, but at least punk caused the end of Emerson, Lake and Palmer's popularity. Thank goodness. [SIZE=1]PS: If Marillion Fan disagrees with anything I said above (although personally I can't see anything a prog rock fan would take exception to there), then I didn't mean it.[/SIZE] |
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#10 |
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stuart TINR '85 I didn't realise I was a prog rock fan actually, but thanks anyway for your opinion. I just didn't like most punk either.
PS: If Marillion Fan disagrees with anything I said above (although personally I can't see anything a prog rock fan would take exception to there), then I didn't mean it. |
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#11 |
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Punk's NOT Dead...(it just smells funny ;) )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart TINR '85
Okay, that's enough about Radiohead.
The reason punk died, or at least became less popular around 1980 (although there were still brilliant punk bands in the '80s, like Dead Kennedys) was, I think, because it had been popular for a few years and was getting stale and tired; some bands were selling out or splitting up, Sex Pistols were killing themselves, that kind of thing. Or to put it another way, they fought the law and the law won. The reason it became popular wasn't just that punk opposed the establishment, but that it was the antidote to the social climate and music of the time. Kids who didn't want to listen to Gary Glitter or (even more foul) Genesis![]() were attracted to punk.Yes, music mostly returned to its previous crappy state after punk, but at least punk caused the end of Emerson, Lake and Palmer's popularity. Thank goodness. [SIZE=1]PS: If Marillion Fan disagrees with anything I said above (although personally I can't see anything a prog rock fan would take exception to there), then I didn't mean it.[/SIZE] I loved it and still do,even though I was the oldest punk there,many happy and dazed sulphate nights were spent in WC2 at The Roxy. If you want this old grunters definition of a Punk band...has to be "The Exploited" and Watty Buchan symbolised the whole nihilism of that time,esp with "Punk's Not Dead" The second that The Sun printed that pic (1976) of "Punk girl" with her homemade binliner chic the DIE(sic) was cast.... As soon as the ghastly Westwood 20 quid T Shirts appeared in BOY and Seditionaries it was official "Punk WAS Dead!!!" (20 was a lot of dosh in 1977,so only the rich weekend punks like jasper Conran could afford that!) Funny how genre after musical genre is Infected by mass media and then,ultimately destroyed. Exactly the same thing happened with the underground early Rave scene "Warehouse parties etc" out came the mass produced Day Glo Smiley T Shirts and other 'de rigeour' rave kit....then Bosh!!! all over,The End. Ultrasound had it dead right in their brill song "Stay Young" when Tiny Green sang..."Gary Glitter's gone to seed so WHO will LEAD us now?" I'm done
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#12 |
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Busted? Punk? Lol .. If there was ever a basic Pop Band, Busted was it.
Sean. |
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#13 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marillion fan
I didn't realise I was a prog rock fan actually, but thanks anyway for your opinion. I just didn't like most punk either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Popidolveteran
The second that The Sun printed that pic (1976) of "Punk girl" with her homemade binliner chic the DIE(sic) was cast....
As soon as the ghastly Westwood 20 quid T Shirts appeared in BOY and Seditionaries it was official "Punk WAS Dead!!!" (20 was a lot of dosh in 1977,so only the rich weekend punks like jasper Conran could afford that!) Funny how genre after musical genre is Infected by mass media and then,ultimately destroyed. The same kind of thing's happened now; people who are pure pop (eg: Holly Valance/some ****** off Fame Academy/kids' TV presenters) are wearing 'Ramones' or 'MC5' T-shirts, with no idea who either of them are. |
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#14 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart TINR '85
And might not like my Genesis slagging-off.
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#15 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Sinclair
Busted? Punk? Lol .. If there was ever a basic Pop Band, Busted was it.
Sean. Thankyou. (first time using the quick reply thing, so i hope the quote appeared at the top of this post). |
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#16 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart TINR '85
Sorry about the mix-up (all I knew was that you started the prog rock appreciation thread. And might not like my Genesis slagging-off).Not that I was alive then, but it's a bit surprising to hear that punk died in 1977. You're right that mass media picked it up, made it "trendy" and harmed it - that happens with most good rock music - but surely the best way for real fans of the genre to counter that is to find more obscure bands, to try and alienate the "trendies"
The same kind of thing's happened now; people who are pure pop (eg: Holly Valance/some ****** off Fame Academy/kids' TV presenters) are wearing 'Ramones' or 'MC5' T-shirts, with no idea who either of them are. Firstly, Punk was a movement not simply a genre of music. Popidolveteran has probably summed it up as elequently as anyone here (a nod and a wink to the self-confessed 51 year old - you're only as old as you feel and if that makes you feel bad, as it does me sometimes, the memories remain good and sound for now anyway!).Your assumption that Punk was the cause of 'no-one having to listen to ELP ever again' is as crass and peurile a statement as I have ever read on these boards. I take it that your opinion is borne from the vast media drivel that accompanied the Punk movement - statements such as 'breath of fresh air' and 'dinosaur killers' were and still are commonplace. It's a shame that their (and subsequently your) hatred of Prog Rock has also led to an ignorance that paradoxically defeats your own arguements. For the record and don't worry - this isn't going to be a tedious histroy lesson, merely recalling a few facts that can be checked and verified - ELP fell victim of their own excesses. Touring North America with a 64-piece symphony orchestra along with master carpenters and electricians, an electronics wizard with a Cambridge degree, a light rigger who apprenticed in a circus as a human cannonball, and a full-time physician (once an Olympic decathlon contender), proved costly. Then, too, there were 10 truckers piloting 45-foot semis with the 150 tons of irreplaceably sophisticated equipment. And that body count didn’t include the 28 additional union locals required at each stopover. Each acoustic classical instrument was miked individually, including the $66,000 Stradivarius of one horrified violinist. ELP lost a fortune and they were a stone's throw from bankruptcy just before they dropped the orchestra! Y'see, the facts of ELP's eventual downfall (first time around - of course they have reformed a few times since, once with the ill-fated Cozy Powell taking the drum stool from Carl Palmer during the mid-eighties; a convenient surname for ELP) are far more interesting than the Fairy Stories touted in the media. Of course, ask John Lydon to this day and he would love to claim responsibility for the downfall of ELP and Prog Rock in general. But even the most casual observer of the late Seventies would have realised that ELP, Yes, Genesis, Zeppelin and Floyd were Album bands - they were not noted for troubling the Singles charts. The same could not be said for Punk of course and like most new movements that are steeped more in fashion of the moment rather than being embedded within the culture, Punk lasted mere minutes, compared to the longevity of Prog and some of the aforementioned groups. Ironic then that, although ELP imploded as a result of over inflated egos (as opposed to lack of musicianship and talent) and the mighty Zeppelin burst when Mr Bonham, on September 24 1980, consumed an uncountable number of drinks and ended up choking on his own vomit at Mr Page's house, Pink Floyd were actually No.1 in singles chart at the turn of the decade and the onset of the 80s showed very little was left of the Punk movement apart from a few post punk bands that were clever enough to mould themselves to the next trend (New Romanticism) or more importantly, embed themselves within the culture and become part of the establishment. Look at The Police/Sting, Blondie/Debbie Harry, The Undertones/Feargal Sharkey and you'll begin to get the picture. For the record, far from disappear off the radar, Genesis become one of the world's biggest stadium rock/pop bands of the 80s and early 90s (no need to even mention Phil Collins) and Yes broke America with their mid-80s classic 90125, reaching the dizzy heights of No.1 in the US singles charts with 'Owner of a Lonely Heart'. Incidently and as a sort of valedictory twist in the tail, I was a fan of Punk too - the music, not the movement. The music was short, simple, heavy and not a million miles away from the Heavy Rock I was listening to anyway, when played well. Unfortunately, the wasters that rode on the back of punk to stick two fingers up to the Establishment when they made no worthy contribution to an alternative other than to stand on street corners drinking cans of Barley Wine with safety pins through any part of the face that was free to pierce, proved to be anthema to many and too extreme. These were the same wasters who donned make-up, frilly collars and cuffs, winkle-pickers and suspect, long fringes swept across one eye, only a few years later. Yes - you know who you are. Too late to blush now!! Here endeth the homily. |
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#17 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megson1965
few post punk bands that were clever enough to mould themselves to the next trend (New Romanticism) or more importantly, embed themselves within the culture and become part of the establishment. Look at The Police/Sting, Blondie/Debbie Harry, The Undertones/Feargal Sharkey and you'll begin to get the picture.
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#18 |
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To me, punk was the Sex Pistols and the Buzzcocks.
It lasted from 1975 - 1977. It went on to influence every decent band for the next 25 years. At the end of the day they were just rock bands, taking that particular style of music to it's logical conclusion, which was ironically not unlike it's beginnings. The punk "attitude" went on to be a huge part of "rave" culture... do it yourself. Prog rock was also a huge influence on dance music. Now I wish the kids would come up with something new. Here's hoping
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#19 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogvod
It went on to influence every decent band for the next 25 years
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#20 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marillion fan
Yeah, influenced every decent band by showing them how not to go about making music.
Good job really dilly dilly dilly. |
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#21 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marillion fan
Good post, but I would query placing The Police with those other groups. The Police never had any connection with punk, unless I'm mistaken?
![]() Just my opinion really having lived through it all but then, like everything else, it's open for debate !Thanks for the response. |
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#22 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogvod
Yep, those scoundrels just couldn't play.
Good job really dilly dilly dilly. Funny how people assume I must be a fan of the Fish days (they've actually made eight albums since then, you've got a lot of catching up to do). |
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#23 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marillion fan
As I recall, there were just two dillies actually.
Funny how people assume I must be a fan of the Fish days (they've actually made eight albums since then, you've got a lot of catching up to do). If my username was "SexPistolsFan" would you assume that I was only interested in their output after Johnny Rotten left? Sorry for that generalisation, I didn't realise. You like Marillion post Fish, I like a few old punk bands. Horses for courses etc. Dillie Dillie |
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#24 |
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The lyrics:
Lavender blue, dilly, dilly Lavender green Then you'll be king, dilly, dilly And I'll be your queen..... I believe these are derived from some sort of children's rhyme or poem. Not surprising then that they are 'childlike'. The rest of the lyrics to Marillion's 'Lavender' are the work of Mr Dick himself. Whether one prefers Derek Dick or Steve Hogarth, one cannot deny that Mr Dick is one of the finest lyricists of his generation, wasted on songs that these days, rarely see the light of day. His solo output has varied and plummeted to new depths with 'Fellini Days'. However, his latest offering 'A Field Of Crows' is getting very good reviews - the best since 'Sunset of Empire' and 'Vigil in the Wilderness of Mirrors'. Looks like there's hope for a Scottish Poet yet. |
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#25 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogvod
Dillie Dillie
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or (even more foul) Genesis
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