I know what you mean here, but there again I think Cheryl Cole is a perfect judge as she has experienced what the contestants are now going through. She has further experience in selling albums and appearing in concerts so she understands what the public want and their reactions towards the acts. She can also stand up to Simon and doesn't feel that she has to agree with his every comment.

I think Piers Morgan is a hoot - he just says it as it is. He is talking for Jo Public when he gives his comments, but at his age he really does understand which acts will be able to sell tickets to the audience, and that's what the show is all about - finding talent that will attract an audience and go from strength to strength.

I feel the difference with Alesha is when comparing her like for like with Arlene. Arlene being the one who has many many years experience of not only dancing, but also choreographing so many shows over 30 years or more, knowing what to look for in a dancer and understanding how they can improve; against Alesha who isn't yet 30 and has only two years "experience". I do like Alesha, don't get me wrong, but the replacement isn't working and was never going to.

Here here - very well said

Yes. Bruno demolishing Craig's efforts with a dismissive 'You can't dance'. Why would you want to bother coming back after that? How much more demoralising do you want to get? (Interestingly, the public felt sorry for Craig that week - but not last week ...)

And, from last year, Arlene attacking Christine for 'smiling sweetly'. And, of course, the appalling lynch mob going for Mark Foster: 'grotesque'; 'a stick insect on acid'.

And I'm sure that is just the tip of the iceberg ...

Because his belief that his dancing was OK and undermarked was part of the reason why he made so little effort to listen to his coach and improve.

That isn't true, as Flavia regularly praised the amount of work he put in. He may have believed himself to be better than he was, but it didn't stop him from putting in a lot of effort.

That is true, or rather it is a matter of opinion. There is a difference between putting in hours to learn a routine and believing that posture, placement and technique is important in that routine. He obviously had no clue that it was, and didn't believe anyone that told him what he had to work on. The judges started with constructive criticism - and others on the same level as him clearly tried to work on their flaws whilst he didn't - it then became pointless cos he was clearly too pig headed to listen to anything. I think Alesha was wrong to criticise him not because what she said was wrong, although it was needlessly rude, but because his delusion made it pointless.

I don't believe that's true at all. I'm sure he listened and,worked hard, and did try to improve but as I've said before he just wasn't able to get it i.e in musicality, timing and performance etc. Some people just can't however many hours and effort they put in.

Thank you for the riposte. I am well impressed with your sleuthing skills!

I agree that those are unnecessarily personal insults directed at Arlene; however, I would point out that she had been on the show for far longer than Alesha. Not that that excuses the language used - but I can't recall her being put under the microscope and ripped to shreds for 38 pages, sometimes in a very personal way, for one single comment.

I must say that I think it's depressingly predictable that the two women judges get personal insults flung at them, while none of the men get anything remotely in that vein directed at them.

I have to add that I feel posters trying to justify their arguments by referring to Alesha's experience vs Arlene's are confusing the issue. Alesha was never about replacing Arlene's perspective: it was about introducing a different dynamic into the judging panel. Bruno is a choreographer with years of experience - why bother with two of them? The root of the problem here is that Alesha suddenly and abruptly stepped out of character - that is what everyone is reacting to: there is now a question mark over her role on the panel ... and that, unfortunately, is what a number of people are struggling with.

The final verdict on Alesha won't come for me until the end of the series - but I have to say that whether she stays or not, Karen Hardy is currently proving her worth as an intelligent critic on ITT and should not be overlooked for the main show.

I don't think it's fair to say he didn't try to work on his flaws just because he didn't improve much. He never claimed he was a great dancer who didn't need to improve. He just felt he was overly criticised.

The only point I don't agree with you on is that Alesha was wrong to criticise him - up to that point, he'd been offered constructive criticism by all of the judges and 'damned with faint praise' by Flavia whose facial expression and body language were almost always at variance with her words.

Undeterred, he seemed to decide that his detractors were wrong and that he was right - managing to avoid the (debatably) 'lovable' John Sergeant tongue-in-cheek aethos and emerge as an arrogant and argumentative pain in the *rse - apart from the week when he shamelessly yammered on about his birthday and his life's ambition - to dance at Blackpool Tower Ballroom.

I honestly don't remember reading many posts supporting and 'loving' him on the main part of the forum at that point or any point before that - it's quite amazing how he has suddenly morphed into an innocent and lovable martyr once he became useful as a pawn in the game of vilifying and demonising Alesha!

You are quiet right on some points.Craig was a pain in thearse ,and NO , he wasnt loved or adored and Yes he was argumentitive
But some people can still see that and still not agree with the way Alesha spoke to him .By saying Alesha was rude is not ,, by ant stretch of the imagination , saying we adore Craig

I'm one of those people, too, Abba. Well said.

So Muggsy, do I understand you right? You're implying that Arlene and Alesha have both been pulled through the mangle on DS by a minority of posters, who appear to combine the attitude of a pitbull-hyena crossbreed with the self-righteousness of a Jimmy Swaggert (look him up) and the vocabulary of a Rangers fan at an old-firm away game?

What a brilliant description

Yes.

ETA to say don't need to look up Jimmy Swaggart. But if I did it would be useful that I can spell his name.

I wonder what evidence people have for saying that Craig didn't work on those points picked up by the judges week by week. Yes, he did seem to confuse learning a new dance with improvement; he seemed to think that because he felt easier being out on the floor and giving a performance that it must be coming across to the rest of us (it wasn't), but that doesn't mean he didn't take criticism on board and try to address it. He just wasn't very good at doing so.

As a dancer, Craig put me in mind of Boxer the carthorse on Animal Farm learning the alphabet. Boxer only managed to learn the letters A, B, C and D. On several occasions he did manage to learn the letters E, F, G and H only to find that he had forgotten A, B, C and D! I think Craig was like that. He had so many things to work on that he'd address a couple of issues and more would crop up. He'd try to address those and find he'd lost whatever improvement he'd made on the original issues plus, further ones would have arisen. It was like trying to stem the tide; hence, Craig thought he was improving (because he was putting in the hoursand working on what he was supposed to work on) but he wasn't because it was a vicious circle and he couldn't see/accept that.

I certainly didn't adore Craig but Alesha, as has been said many times before, was out of order because she made it personal to her by saying because Zoe had left she had to "endure" Craig's dancing. That is what this is all about. It is nothing new for Judges to be rude though I really wish they wouldn't, judges have patronised and condescended to contestants for years but it was different in this case because this particular Judge had been brought in to empathise, nurture and support the celebrity dancers which Miss Dixon failed to do. Alesha is in a unique position on the show as she has been a contestant - and can see it through their eyes and know the difficulties involved - but she let friendship impair her professionalism and, in doing so, publicly humiliated Craig in front of his family, the audience in the Tower Ballroom and millions watching the show. How terrible to do that to somebody just to get your point across!!!

She acted like a jumped-up little madam.

Who does she think she is to speak like that to anyone? Bloomin' rude. It matters not that she was speaking honestly. That does not excuse poor manners.

"Endure", indeed!

Quite right and we have to endure her tomorrow night. It will be interesting to see how she is. Surely she has notmissed all the complaints about her on here and, apparently, on the BBC forum.

And I!

The trouble is, my opinion is that she DID think. She knew what she was going to say. She had those words ready. Bet she had been practising beforehand. Dreadful.

Yes, it is the fact that she came over as quite pompous. How dare she.

Totally agree. Your post says it all and tomorrow we will have to "endure" her.

Thats what I said further up Samiskim. I suppose we have a choice whether we listen to her or not. Poor Craig did not.

I suppose this thread will finish tomorrow unless she is rude to someone else. One would hope that she has learned her lesson though.

Not long to wait now to see what she's going to be like in this latest episode! Will we get nice Alesha or nasty Alesha? Time will tell ...