If Simon had taken it to deadlock and The Twins had turned out to have the lowest vote and been sent home I doubt there would have been any outcry over his behaviour and over deadlock as an option.

Therefore the problem isn't actually with the deadlock or the way it works but with it not going the way a lot of people (not me ) hoped or expected.

It's only become an issue because it involved an act that tends to polarise opinion against one that most people didn't have much of an opinion on (or she would have had more votes).

He only uses the Deadlock when he's sure it will get him the result he wants. He knew Lucie had least votes.

He didn't go to Deadlock with Rikki - he must have had more votes!

Idol's actually not a proper contest. Because it's an entertainment show, rather than a game show, the producers can manipulate the votes if they want to and think they can get away with it. It's not subject to regulation in the same way that XF is.

They also pull similar mic level/last minute song switching/ "The programme's running a bit short, Clay, so just add in an unrehearsed verse, eh?" tricks.

The talent pool is larger so there are, of course, more good singers.

I'm a twins fan, so glad they got through. I like Lucie's voice a lot too, and peferred her over the rest of the other contestants. I think what I didn't buy, well before the singoff, was Simon saying he half thought the twins were quite good, and picked a good song for them. His change of attitude on the Saturday night just threw me, and it didn't fit, and I didn't believe him. I sort of got the feeling he knew the twins would be in the bottom two and already wanted to save them, depending on who they were up against. I do think he didn't expect it to be Lucie though, but sacrificed her anyway. The whole sing off thing would have been far worse, in my opinion, if he had slated the twins on Saturday night.

That's not my point. My point being it only became an issue when it didn't go the way a lot of people hoped. Had it gone the other way on deadlock there'd have been few complaints, therefore the problem is not with the system if people only complain about the system when it doesn't go their way.

Rikki was pretty obviously the weakest on performance and singing so no need to go to deadlock. He wasnt' keeping anyone watching or voting or entertained much. Seemed like a nice guy though.

You are right of course, and therein lies the problem.

It worked how it should if there is a 2/2 split with the judges, but because it worked out the "wrong" way, it has become a huge issue.

If all the people complaining can hold their hands up and say they would STILL have complained had Lucie stayed, maybe I will change my mind.

Or probably not, because I wouldnt believe half of them. Sorry.

firstly, i think you need to get that twitch sorted out.

yes - i know that the deadlock thing is there as an option, but the whole perceived point of the deadlock thing is where the two acts in the bottom two are evenly matched, and its too close to call.

where it would be perfectly reasonable for them to get two votes each.

it was barely reasonable for Rachel and Lloyd to get two votes each (his croaky voice being the benefit of the doubt), and it was simply farcical that John & Edward and Lucie got two votes each.

Iain

no - you're missing the fundamental point.

the judges are there to vote off the weakest of the bottom two.

that's their supposed role as judge.

if they vote to keep the weakest of the bottom two, then they're not doing the thing they're supposed to be there to do.

Iain

Bit self defeating, as in both cases in the last two weeks the weaker act in terms of singing and vocal performance has been saved. In which case it is not people complaining because it 'didn;t go their way' it is people complaining because they thought they were watching a show the stated intention of which (throughout all the audition processes and frequently reiterated in comments like 'you are not a strong enough vocalist' or 'the vocal just isn't good enough' in judgements) is to find a quality singing act to benefit from a recording contract. That is what is upsetting people.

I have to laugh at the number of threads where people seem to think that the X Factor is in some sort of crisis over Lucie and Rachel leaving, and that Simon might be thinking of changing the format. In fact I'm sure he's delighted at the publicity and all the 'vote for Jedward to spite Simon' campaigns (his PR people are probably behind most of it anyway). This kind of fuss happens every year and is manna from heaven for the show leading to increased viewing figures and votes. As I've said before, unless people stopped watching the show, voting/buying X factor singles in large numbers I'm sure no-one involved with producing it will see it a a crisis. He is canny enough to know it will all be forgotten in a week or so and certainly by the end of the year. Don't believe you won't always be talking about it or thinking about it? Remember some of the scandals already this year - Danni's remarks to Danyl, Simon 'leaving the country/ending the X Factor ' - all virtually forgotten already

You missed my point about 'performance' not being the same as vocal ability. Rickki IMO had neither in sufficient quantities to stay over his opposition and the judges agreed. The twins had 'performance' compared to Lucie's vocal ability so it is possible to see why the decision was more difficult.

But people are complaining about them using deadlock and saying it should be some other process. Theres's nothing wrong with the process, as when it works as a lot of people think it 'should' you don't get all these complaints.

If you are going to complain about deadlock and say it should be done some other way that's fine but only if you would have complained just as much had Lucie stayed.

You can't go saying a process is fair but only if it works out the way you want. It's etheir fair or it's not. Of course anyone who thought anything about X factor was fair or designed to help people become recording artists are sadly mistaken.

And IMO the weakest acts did go each time (although I'd have preferred it be someone other than Lucie in bottom two as I liked her). Not the weakest singers but the weakest acts (of the two) taken as a whole and the one that had the fewest votes from the public.

Lucie can't have been that many people's favourite or she'd have had more votes, so why are people making such a big deal out of her going?

After the LLoyd vs Rachel thing people can hardly say they thought she'd be safe because she's a better singer. Would people have complained if she'd gone out to anyone else or is it just really an anti-Twins thing?

Yes I understand but you are not getting MY point. No matter what Simon may say, because we know he will always say what is best to get the show publicity, you don't actually KNOW which act Simon considered the weakest.

You are assuming, but unless he had voted prior to everyone else you wouldnt know.

It does seem generally accepted by most, and by me as it happens, that Lucie was the "better" singer. She is a better singer than half of those in the charts, so the point is?

People keep saying "they vote off the weakest or the worst singer" and ASSUME that EVERYONE agrees it was John and Edward that deserved to go.

Lucie did a good song, but her voice is not as great as it suddenly appears to have become in everyones mind since this happened.

And to Simon the weakest act might mean the one less likely to go further or generate more interest - so in that case he could easily have put John and Edward in pole position.

THATS what I am trying to say. Just because a lot of people say so, doesnt make it true!

And it worked how its supposed to work. Shout about it as much as you like, Deadlock did exactly what it said on the tin!

then i'm disagreeing that there's any doubt whatsoever that Simon thought Lucie was worse than John and Edward.

no-one in their right mind could have actually thought that, let alone Simon who - whatever else - is usually bang on the money.

Iain

I agree Iain, but you are again assuming that Simon would choose based on best voice rather than best for the show. He may have voted to keep J&E in for the sake of the show rather than Lucie, the no doubt about it better singer, but who had less press interest and controversy.

The thing is, they can all spout off about it as much as they like (the judges I mean) but in the end their motives are their own. So you can't assume that Simon would not have sent Lucie home if he had been asked to vote before Cheryl.

An example being, the judges who have an act in the bottom two will vote for their own act. Louis voted for John and Edward NOT the best singer. No-one says he shouldnt, because it was his act. HOWEVER, if you want the sing off to be worth something, then all the judges need to be held to the same standard, whether their act is in the bottom 2 or not.

In fact, the only judge ever to send home their own act, is Simon himself. He knew they were no good for the show AND couldnt sing well enough.

See, hypocritical is one thing. But the whole thing is moot because the judges mentor, they don't just judge. If that was their remit, John and Edward would have been sent home 4-0.

Thats why its silly to jump up and down about it.

And many people can't believe that you think the twins are more talented than Lucie, the major opinion polls on TV show that you would be in the 9% minority

No this is the fundamental flaw in the whole thing.

Two of the judges will always pick their own act whatever and if they're clever the other two will vote off the strongest act to increase their chances of winning.

The judges should be totally independent as in AI.

And the (associate) producer of the whole thing should not be a judge fullstop.

Or even better it always goes on the public vote with one who gets the lowest vote going every week.

But that would entail Cowell losing control

John & Edward gave a far more entertaining performance than Lucie in the sing-off. I enjoyed watching them and was bored with Lucie (and the general blandness of most the contestants this year). Cowell did the right thing.

Want to know how the show really works? There's an excellent article in The Independent:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...y-1818869.html

LOL where have I said I thought the twins were more talented? In practically every post I have made on the subject I have said that in my opinion Lucie was clearly the best singer etc.
I am not talking about who is better, I am talking about how it works, and what Simon may/may not have thought re what J&E bring to the show as opposed to what Lucie would have brought.

Lucie is clearly the more talented, but thats not the point I have been making.

Maybe you had better re-read some of what I have had to say on the matter, and not just pick out the bits that you feel you can have a go at me on.

Edit: as an example, part of my earlier post states :

It does seem generally accepted by most, and by me as it happens, that Lucie was the "better" singer. She is a better singer than half of those in the charts, so the point is?

except its not a who is the most entertaining competition, its (supposed to be) a singing competition.

J&E might be hilarious to watch, but how many people over the age of eight would actually buy their records?

Iain

and last week this flaw was highlighted more than ever before, which i think is why its caused such a stramash.

never before, i don't think, there has been such a blatant vote in the name of self interest.

Iain

i get that too, but J&E weren't Simon's act.

judges will always save their own act, but there will usually be two other judges to make up for that.

and in this case Simon did seem to shirk his supposed responsibility. it may have happened before, but most times it will be subjective, whereas this clearly wasn't.

and i'm not jumping up and down about it, i'm just expressing an opinion about it.

Iain

Actually, there was one year where Simon did send his own act home. I cannot remember who it was, but I do remember that in one Sing-Off he had one of his own acts that wasn't very good and someone elses (may have been Sharon's). He voted to send his own act home.

Yep, me too! I really can't be bothered (except on here where you are SUPPOSED to be bothered to put across your own views) to let it worry me over much.

I just love The X Factor. Even when my favourites go out, I still watch til the bitter end to see who wins the crown.

I guess the crown gets more tarnished with every passing year though.

Still, I will probably keep watching til they put it to rest.

And who made you lord and master of how people should vote? I vote for the act I like the most, I don't need to be told how to vote by the Cowell machine or whatever arbitrary standard people create to justify their decisions. The charts aren't all about singing you know. Jedward, Jamie andDanyl are the only acts left who I'd personally buy. Unless the others suddenly decide to create personalities overnight.