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Karen Hardy on Breakfast - Chris "should have got tens"
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claire2281
30-11-2009
I think Chris's performance of the Charleston was brilliant and he should be particularly praised for keeping in such great time with Ola. Many celebs have struggled with that, especially in the side by side moves.

To play Devil's advocate, I wonder what those who advocate Karen as a judge would have made of her giving Chris a 10?
maggie48
30-11-2009
I only saw the end of Chris & Ola but my OH said it was the best dance of the night.
Spinaker5
30-11-2009
Originally Posted by TallyHo77:
“She said had he danced later in the show he would have picked up a few tens for the charleston. Also she criticised Brian's erm "driving" in the Viennese Waltz, saying he really should have been able to avoid having two collisions with other couples.
She ended by saying that she was still tipping Ricky to win but was about to go and give Chris a couple of tips of things she wants him to improve...

Incidentally, during the interview they played clips of the charlestons, and it seemed to me that Ali and Brian's one was somewhat lacking in rhythm. I know it was a semi-pastiche of the ventriloquist routine from Chicago, but it just seemed too sloppy to me. Yes Ali can do the splits (that's what ballet class as a child can do for you) but Chris and Ola's routine was much tighter rhythmically. In my opinion that's quite important!”

So if Karen says it it must be right. She showed the same prejudice against Kelly Brook. How hard it is for a girl to win! Chris should not have beeen awarded any '10' imo as his dancing didn't merit it. When they were dancing side by side, Ola out danced him.

As for your observations on rhythm, I totally disagree.
yenston
30-11-2009
I agree that Chris and Ola would have got a higher score had they danced last. And by the same token I think Laila and Anton would have got a lower score had they danced first. I'm not sure Chris and Ola would have got tens but maybe nines across the board.
Robert Romarin
30-11-2009
Originally Posted by TallyHo77:
“She said both as far as I can remember - at the start of the interview she said she thought Chris and Ola would have got some tens if they had danced later on in the show. Towards the end of the interview when they mentioned Chris, she said he should have got tens.

(Remember of course this was on Breakfast, with Bill Turnbull, who mentioned that before the series started he had predicted Chris would get to the last four, so Karen may well have been saying nice things about Chris because he is Breakfast's representative in this years series. Mind you she also said she had expected Joe C to be very good, so there you go!)”

Thanks for clarifying.
JollyMolly
30-11-2009
Originally Posted by Erinfan:
“Floorcraft is your ability to move around the floor whilst you're dancing to show off your dance in the best light. Dancers with good floorcraft can avoid collisions, by showing awareness of what's going on around them and suddenly changing the choreography to move out of a collision. Bad floorcraft is when you don't show that awareness or flexibility and you then end up boxed in, hidden or you knock into people.

Sometimes you can't avoid collisions or a couple will just cut right across you. Some couples are also deliberately boxed in as a naughty competitive strategy. The top dancers can get out of it though and they can come up with some pretty funny ways to get out of the situation, which also charms the audience and judges.

Exhibit A - Franco Formica! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhW8tTjae0k”

That is brilliant I hope they ended up winning Thanks for posting it, I never realised it could be quite like that in competitions
Dilly 1
30-11-2009
Originally Posted by Erinfan:
“Floorcraft is your ability to move around the floor whilst you're dancing to show off your dance in the best light. Dancers with good floorcraft can avoid collisions, by showing awareness of what's going on around them and suddenly changing the choreography to move out of a collision. Bad floorcraft is when you don't show that awareness or flexibility and you then end up boxed in, hidden or you knock into people.

Sometimes you can't avoid collisions or a couple will just cut right across you. Some couples are also deliberately boxed in as a naughty competitive strategy. The top dancers can get out of it though and they can come up with some pretty funny ways to get out of the situation, which also charms the audience and judges.

Exhibit A - Franco Formica! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhW8tTjae0k”

Thanks for the link Erinfan. Probably one of the funniest dance scenarios I've seen. I cried with laughing watching it.
Erinfan
30-11-2009
Originally Posted by JollyMolly:
“That is brilliant I hope they ended up winning Thanks for posting it, I never realised it could be quite like that in competitions ”

They did. They were Amateur World Champs for years, no one came close to them. Franco is...erm...unique! You don't often see floorcraft quite as extreme as that, but quite often couples will swap partners briefly if they get in each others way in latin - that always gets a massive ovation from the audience!
Balthus
30-11-2009
So, Karen would've given Chris a 10 for his Charleston -- Well, there goes her credibility as a judge! At least Alesha gives 10s to good dancers.

Karen as a judge on Strictly? No thank you!
Lurksalot
30-11-2009
Originally Posted by TallyHo77:
“She said both as far as I can remember - at the start of the interview she said she thought Chris and Ola would have got some tens if they had danced later on in the show. Towards the end of the interview when they mentioned Chris, she said he should have got tens.

(Remember of course this was on Breakfast, with Bill Turnbull, who mentioned that before the series started he had predicted Chris would get to the last four, so Karen may well have been saying nice things about Chris because he is Breakfast's representative in this years series. Mind you she also said she had expected Joe C to be very good, so there you go!)”

Not likely. I think she says it like it is. When there was the controversy around Erin/Ricky's lift, she completely contradicted Erin on ITT even though Erin was probably still in the studio.
Ignazio
30-11-2009
Originally Posted by bendymixer:
“Totally agree that had Chris danced last he would have scored the highest Charleston looking at the video of the VW I still think the two best VW were Ricky and Ali though would have marked Ricky top”

I agree that he should, but not that he would - the judges knew what scores they had given Chris, therefore they had the opportunity to score Ali less but didn't.

As for the VW - I though Laila and Anton were top of the class.
Erinfan
30-11-2009
Originally Posted by Balthus:
“So, Karen would've given Chris a 10 for his Charleston -- Well, there goes her credibility as a judge! At least Alesha gives 10s to good dancers.

Karen as a judge on Strictly? No thank you! ”

Karen's one of the top ballroom judges in the world and has an incredibly high technical knowledge of each dance. You may not always personally agree with her and she may not be an expert in Charleston, but I don't see how anyone could ever question her credibility as a judge.
Veri
30-11-2009
Originally Posted by TallyHo77:
“She said had he danced later in the show he would have picked up a few tens for the charleston. Also she criticised Brian's erm "driving" in the Viennese Waltz, saying he really should have been able to avoid having two collisions with other couples.
She ended by saying that she was still tipping Ricky to win but was about to go and give Chris a couple of tips of things she wants him to improve...”

How did "would have" turn into "should have"?

(Someone said Karen said "should" later. What we really need is a recording so we can check for ourselves.)

Quote:
“Incidentally, during the interview they played clips of the charlestons, and it seemed to me that Ali and Brian's one was somewhat lacking in rhythm. I know it was a semi-pastiche of the ventriloquist routine from Chicago, but it just seemed too sloppy to me. Yes Ali can do the splits (that's what ballet class as a child can do for you) but Chris and Ola's routine was much tighter rhythmically. In my opinion that's quite important!”

Ballet class as a child does not mean you can do splits as an adult.

Interesting, though, that the first post in a thread billed as about Karen and Chris spends most of it's time poor mouthing Ali and Brian's dances.
Veri
30-11-2009
Originally Posted by Erinfan:
“Karen's one of the top ballroom judges in the world and has an incredibly high technical knowledge of each dance. You may not always personally agree with her and she may not be an expert in Charleston, but I don't see how anyone could ever question her credibility as a judge.”

We can question anyone's credibility as a judge if their marks don't make sense. Hence much questioning of Len's credibility over the years. Or if they seem biased.

Originally Posted by claire2281:
“To play Devil's advocate, I wonder what those who advocate Karen as a judge would have made of her giving Chris a 10?”

It could depend on what her other marks had been. It's the differences in a judge's marks for different couples that makes a difference to the placings, not the particular mark values.
arddunol
30-11-2009
I enjoyed ALL the Charlestons .
I though Anton was the best pro on Saturday; he was brilliant .

I didn't think Ali was worth a 10 for the VW by a long way and 36 would have been fair for their Charleston, the over the shoulder lift at the end was not great . . Having said that I though Chris was equally as good and he should have had 36 at least .
soulmate61
30-11-2009
Originally Posted by Erinfan:
“
The top dancers can get out of it though and they can come up with some pretty funny ways to get out of the situation, which also charms the audience and judges.

Exhibit A - Franco Formica! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhW8tTjae0k”

Melia is famous for mischief. I believe it was her who instigated it. Once Melia saw they had Franco blocked off she held Sergey immobile on the spot. When Sergey realised Franco was tunneling through Sergey widened his legs to help, as Melia looked down in amazement laughing her head off. Well done the agile Franco.

For the bow at the end Sergey walked over to shake Franco's hand. Melia also applauded

The Great Escape

Can any German speakers tell us what the commentator said?
Lorelei Lee
30-11-2009
Originally Posted by Veri:
“Ballet class as a child does not mean you can do splits as an adult.”

Oh my God, I've just agreed with something Veri said.

*faints*

*wakes up*

Sorry, where were we? Oh yes, Karen. I'm struggling to understand how the producers haven't offered her a judging slot yet as she's clearly made her mark on the public this series. Perhaps they have and she's turned it down?
footygirl
30-11-2009
I don't know about that

But back to the topic - we have got to contgact the Beeb - the system is skewedd against the public favourite

Maybe we could point out that if Cola aren't competiting in the final then the audience figures would drop significantly
TallyHo77
30-11-2009
Originally Posted by Veri:
“How did "would have" turn into "should have"? ”

It didn't. Both verbs were used.

Originally Posted by Veri:
“(Someone said Karen said "should" later. What we really need is a recording so we can check for ourselves.)”

I tried to be as precise as I could in my recollection (Breakfast isn't on iPlayer). I'm not sure forensic linguistic analysis is really called for though? It was just an interesting snippet from the media coverage, that's all.

Originally Posted by Veri:
“Ballet class as a child does not mean you can do splits as an adult.”

Indeed. It can though, of course, as I said. And given that Ali's leg extensions were singled out for praise by Bruno in his comments, and it had earlier been mentioned on ITT by Craig that Ali had "balletic training" I hardly see why you're so upset by the comment! (Incidentally lots of people do ballet as children, so I'm by no means making out it's some sort of unfair advantage).

Originally Posted by Veri:
“Interesting, though, that the first post in a thread billed as about Karen and Chris spends most of it's time poor mouthing Ali and Brian's dances. ”

I don't think it's very interesting myself, but then again I don't think your description of my post is accurate, so there you go. They showed clips of two Charlestons and there was a clear difference in the synchronisation and coordination with the music. You can argue about what scores should have been, but it's probably not worth getting too worked up about. Meanwhile, Laila and Anton were not mentioned at all, which was a bit of a shame in my view, as I thought they were rather good on Saturday.
Veri
30-11-2009
Originally Posted by TallyHo77:
“It didn't. Both verbs were used.

...

I tried to be as precise as I could in my recollection (Breakfast isn't on iPlayer). I'm not sure forensic linguistic analysis is really called for though? It was just an interesting snippet from the media coverage, that's all.”

There is a very big difference between "would have" and "should have" in this case, and I think we need a clip so we can hear for ourselves what Karen said, how she said it, and the context.

Quote:
“Indeed. It can though, of course, as I said.”

No, if someone can do splits as an adult it is not because of ballet training as a child. Ballet class as a child does not mean you can do splits as an adult; it doesn't sometimes mean it and sometimes not.

Quote:
“I don't think it's very interesting myself, but then again I don't think your description of my post is accurate, so there you go.”

Over half of the post was about Ali and Brian's dances, and the comments about them were negative.

Quote:
“ They showed clips of two Charlestons and there was a clear difference in the synchronisation and coordination with the music. You can argue about what scores should have been, but it's probably not worth getting too worked up about. Meanwhile, Laila and Anton were not mentioned at all, which was a bit of a shame in my view, as I thought they were rather good on Saturday.”

Before, "it seemed to me that Ali and Brian's one was somewhat lacking in rhythm"; now it's "a clear difference". So again, I think we need to see a clip of the Breakfast segment so we can judge for ourselves. Different people see such things differently, just as they do when watching SCD.
tonydancer
30-11-2009
Duplicate deleted, see below.
tonydancer
30-11-2009
Originally Posted by Lorelei Lee:
“Oh yes, Karen. I'm struggling to understand how the producers haven't offered her a judging slot yet as she's clearly made her mark on the public this series. Perhaps they have and she's turned it down?”

I think that if (big if) the BBC have asked, she probably has turned them down, as she's giving private lessons to couples, for very "discreet" fees, as well as running a dance school, and is in immense demand as a judge, commentator and event host

So it depends how Karen's business rides out the recession, and whether the BBC have left any offer on the table or not.
-Sid-
30-11-2009
I wouldn't have complained if Chris had got a couple of tens.

Let's face it, lesser routines have been awarded a perfect score in the past.
Ignazio
30-11-2009
Originally Posted by Balthus:
“So, Karen would've given Chris a 10 for his Charleston -- Well, there goes her credibility as a judge! At least Alesha gives 10s to good dancers.

Karen as a judge on Strictly? No thank you! ”



Karen's credibility is based on recognised qualifications to judge dance internationally - prior to which she was a world champion in dance.

Now how does Alesha measure up to that>
isopap
30-11-2009
Originally Posted by bobbla:
“You should have titled your thread differently. That opening post looks more like a lets slag off Ali and Brian than a lets praise Chris.

I was all ready to post that i agreed that Chris probably did deserve higher scores for his Charleston (although i wouldn't go as far as 10s) but i don't like this new trend of supporting your favourites by slagging off the competition.”

I'm not a great fan of it, probably not a co-incidence that the being nasty about contestants threads have greatly increased as the competition narrows

I actually thought that both charleston's were great but that and although Chris' was more entertaining, Ali was better technically and therefore deserved more marks.
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