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  • Strictly Come Dancing
A Farce if Hollins wins - the show lacks enough credibility as it is
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nancy1975
01-12-2009
If the majority of the public like Chris and Ola the most and are entertained by them the most and enjoy their dancing the most then they should be 'allowed' to win. I don't get the problem. Why not scrap our votes entirely? Superfluous evidently. But I've been here before.:yawn: Groundhog....groundhog.....

The show WILL lose all credibility if the public favourite can't get to the final. That's the end game. There was a loophole for Tom. There may not be a loophole this time.
InigoMontoya
01-12-2009
Originally Posted by gorlagon:
“One day, I will come on to this forum and find a thread title sans hyperbole. Reasonable arguments. Respect for other points of view. Y'know. I can always dream.

FARCE? Oh lord help me.”

Want to make a thread somewhere and make babies?

Possible topics:
1. "Judges' favourite." An oxymoron?
2. Dancing vs. personality and what it says about the values of the great British public.
3. Would opinions be less like a-holes if at least the attempt was made to ensure that they were informed?
Servalan
01-12-2009
Originally Posted by maxiewaxie:
“Whilst I have nothing against Chris at all, he seems a nice enough chap I don't understand all this talk of personality. Why is personality only measured in terms of fun, catchphrases, acting childishly, being a comedian etc. Ali and Ricky both have personalities just a bit more reserved but both are hard working, enthusastic and all the other qualities that the contestants should be. Why is it that they are perceived as not enjoying themselves as much as Chris? Ali especially seems to be loving every moment and has shown some very good characteristics, bravery in particular but because she doesn't do slapstick humour she is said not to have any personality. Why can't being serious about something be seen as equally as valuable as having 'fun'. Why is FUN all that seems to matter these days?”

Reality shows are like dramas: they require the audience to engage with and invest in characters they like. They differ in that we, the audience, get to have a say in who stays on screen and who goes. So the onus is on all participants in these shows to somehow hook viewers in. This is more blatant in the likes of Big Brother; in Strictly, we are asked to invest in contestants as we watch them learn to dance.

When dramas are created, characters are devised to fulfil certain roles, embody certain characteristics, appeal to certain demographics. They are assigned traits that will promote conflict with other characters. While Strictly doesn't aspire to the kind of low-rent fights that litter the BB house, it nevertheless wants 'characters' to develop among its celebrity cast - hence the endless footage of the celebs training, rehearsing ... all of which is then carefully edited by the producers to generate interest in who the celebs are. In other words, they are trying to create and promote characters.

Where this series of Strictly, and its predecessor, have come undone is in the casting. There aren't enough distinctive characters and, in both shows, we have ended up with celebs who are technically proficient, but lack strong personalities. Ali seems nice and has undoubtedly had more than her share of medical scares ... but she isn't really that strong a character. All the potential drama lies unexplored between her and Brian, but with none of the mystique that we saw previously between Matt and Flavia. And last Friday said much more about Ricky's character than anything we have seen on camera, where he talks repeatedly about wanting to win.

So yes, Ali and Ricky are more reserved - and while there's nothing wrong with that in principle, it inevitably plays against them in the audience's mind. Chris and Ola have a strong professional chemistry between them and the fun we see them having in their training footage - which they brought to the dancefloor so well on Saturday - is infectious. They have engaged with the audience - Team Cola came from a DS poster and they have acknowledged this in the T-shirts. I don't know whose idea that was but it was a stroke of genius. It's like them connecting with us.

So sure, what we see of them has been edited together to help create a character (or, to be accurate, two characters) - but it's very clearly genuine. (I'd say the same of Natalie and Vincent, too - this series' other distinctive characters). And it leaps off the screen in a Saturday evening entertainment show which is supposed to be fun. That is why he has such strong public support.

Chris isn't a comedy contestant - he needs to improve technically - and he is working just as hard as Ali, Ricky and Laila. But when the show is short of characters to easily latch onto - and that is how television works - it's no wonder that he and Ola have come to the fore.

(Sorry about the essay! )
Apricot
01-12-2009
"So sure, what we see of them has been edited together to help create a character (or, to be accurate, two characters) - but it's very clearly genuine."


Chris & Ola's relationship may well be genuine but we don't know that for sure. As you say, the characters are created, a narrative put in place and the producers use the footage that supports it. Chris appears to be a lovely, witty and amiable guy and Ola plays the bossy, dominant teacher & it's cute because they're both little "munchkins". The reality, when the cameras stop rolling for the VTs, might be totally different - we just don't know.

As far as Ricky & Natalie is concerned, they've had so little coverage and training footage due to the Liverpool location that we can't form a view. It looks to me as though the cameraman pops in a couple of times a week & the ITT chats on the sofa have been few and far between. It's not the BBC's fault, Ricky took on the project knowing publicity would be limited - it is as it is and as Ricky fans we have to deal with it.

What makes me think Ricky is a truly genuine guy though is the reaction from the Tesspit towards Ricky by all the other couples and this footage is live on a Saturday and can't be faked or edited.

Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting Chris and Ola have anything other than a fantastic relationship but we can't know for sure.

It did make me think when Claudia said last night to Nat & Vincent that some professionals look distraught on leaving on ITT and then airily pass on to the next one - it's all a great big puppet show but I love it
Servalan
01-12-2009
Originally Posted by Apricot:
“"So sure, what we see of them has been edited together to help create a character (or, to be accurate, two characters) - but it's very clearly genuine."


Chris & Ola's relationship may well be genuine but we don't know that for sure. As you say, the characters are created, a narrative put in place and the producers use the footage that supports it. Chris appears to be a lovely, witty and amiable guy and Ola plays the bossy, dominant teacher & it's cute because they're both little "munchkins". The reality, when the cameras stop rolling for the VTs, might be totally different - we just don't know.

As far as Ricky & Natalie is concerned, they've had so little coverage and training footage due to the Liverpool location that we can't form a view. It looks to me as though the cameraman pops in a couple of times a week & the ITT chats on the sofa have been few and far between. It's not the BBC's fault, Ricky took on the project knowing publicity would be limited - it is as it is and as Ricky fans we have to deal with it.

What makes me think Ricky is a truly genuine guy though is the reaction from the Tesspit towards Ricky by all the other couples and this footage is live on a Saturday and can't be faked or edited.

Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting Chris and Ola have anything other than a fantastic relationship but we can't know for sure.

It did make me think when Claudia said last night to Nat & Vincent that some professionals look distraught on leaving on ITT and then airily pass on to the next one - it's all a great big puppet show but I love it”

I have seen - and worked with - some Grade A fakes in television and if Chris and Ola aren't genuine, all I can say is they must have both secretly attended RADA and should be nominated for BAFTAs.

My post wasn't intended to be dismissive or derogatory towards the other contestants - merely an observation on how television works.

I agree that we see less of Ricky - but you can blame Lime Pictures for that. You would think they'd've been intelligent enough to spot a publicity opportunity when they had it and give him some time off ... but no. Obviously bad management in television exists in other places than the BBC.
Apricot
01-12-2009
Originally Posted by Servalan:
“I have seen - and worked with - some Grade A fakes in television and if Chris and Ola aren't genuine, all I can say is they must have both secretly attended RADA and should be nominated for BAFTAs.

My post wasn't intended to be dismissive or derogatory towards the other contestants - merely an observation on how television works.

I agree that we see less of Ricky - but you can blame Lime Pictures for that. You would think they'd've been intelligent enough to spot a publicity opportunity when they had it and give him some time off ... but no. Obviously bad management in television exists in other places than the BBC. ”


No I didn't take it as such - I just try and plug Ricky whenever I can

I agree that the Hollyoaks production company hasn't cut him any slack at all. They've promised to trim his storyline in the latter stages of the comp (is the QF not the latter stages) & yet it sounds as though his schedule is as bad as it ever was this week and this might be his last appearance on SCD
maxiewaxie
01-12-2009
I can see what you're saying and I fully understand why people like team Cola but I still don't believe that everyone prefers 'fun' over everything else. As I said competent dancing is very entertaining and enjoyable for me, not everything has to make me laugh nor do I have to 'engage' with everyone for it to be worth watching. I don't believe it is a farce if Chris wins but we did have a cheeky chappie last year as the winner albeit a good dancer as well. People saying that Ali is boring is what annoys me, does everyone have to laugh in order to be entertained? I don't find Ali and Ricky in the least bit boring because I watch to see good dancing and that's what they deliver. It's the constant obsession with fun that I find tedious and boring.
Servalan
01-12-2009
Originally Posted by maxiewaxie:
“I can see what you're saying and I fully understand why people like team Cola but I still don't believe that everyone prefers 'fun' over everything else. As I said competent dancing is very entertaining and enjoyable for me, not everything has to make me laugh nor do I have to 'engage' with everyone for it to be worth watching. I don't believe it is a farce if Chris wins but we did have a cheeky chappie last year as the winner albeit a good dancer as well. People saying that Ali is boring is what annoys me, does everyone have to laugh in order to be entertained? I don't find Ali and Ricky in the least bit boring because I watch to see good dancing and that's what they deliver. It's the constant obsession with fun that I find tedious and boring.”

I never said 'everyone prefers "fun" over everything else'. It's all in the eye of the beholder.

And no, of course people don't have to laugh to be entertained - but there is cheekiness to Chris and Ola that they managed to capture in their performance and that is what has engaged so many people that they have never ended up in the dance-off ... yet.

That could all change on Saturday - who knows?
RichmondBlue
01-12-2009
Originally Posted by maxiewaxie:
“I can see what you're saying and I fully understand why people like team Cola but I still don't believe that everyone prefers 'fun' over everything else. As I said competent dancing is very entertaining and enjoyable for me, not everything has to make me laugh nor do I have to 'engage' with everyone for it to be worth watching. I don't believe it is a farce if Chris wins but we did have a cheeky chappie last year as the winner albeit a good dancer as well. People saying that Ali is boring is what annoys me, does everyone have to laugh in order to be entertained? I don't find Ali and Ricky in the least bit boring because I watch to see good dancing and that's what they deliver. It's the constant obsession with fun that I find tedious and boring.”

I agree up to a point. If nobody produces a really "wow" performance, my vote would always go to the best dancer. Those type of performances need not be funny, but they are usually unexpected. It could be a very dramatic routine, or even something remarkably touching. The problem for me this year is that (so far) I have seen nothing that quite floats my boat. Even Chris and Ola's Charleston (which was good) didn't quite do it for me. I'm still waiting for that one gob-smacking performance.
mindyann
01-12-2009
Originally Posted by Apricot:
“
As far as Ricky & Natalie is concerned, they've had so little coverage and training footage due to the Liverpool location that we can't form a view. It looks to me as though the cameraman pops in a couple of times a week & the ITT chats on the sofa have been few and far between. It's not the BBC's fault, Ricky took on the project knowing publicity would be limited - it is as it is and as Ricky fans we have to deal with it. ”

Sorry if off topic, but still think that the best thing Ricky could have done was something along the lines of Carole Smilie and the 'Carol Cam' - a 'Whittle Web' or something. She showed that training away from London didn't have to mean less footage and it worked wonders for both her and Matt.
Apricot
01-12-2009
Originally Posted by mindyann:
“Sorry if off topic, but still think that the best thing Ricky could have done was something along the lines of Carole Smilie and the 'Carol Cam' - a 'Whittle Web' or something. She showed that training away from London didn't have to mean less footage and it worked wonders for both her and Matt.”


I would have loved a 'Whittle Web' & am surprised that nothing was set up. He does tweet and blog but it's not the same as seeing footage.
Annsyre
01-12-2009
Originally Posted by sarahca:
“We had Mr Showman winning last year and Osmond won on the US show. Its all getting so predictable. If Hollins wins it will set such a pattern that I can see people really losing interest and switching off next year.”

So you don't like Chris?:yawn:
Scattyjan
02-12-2009
Originally Posted by thenetworkbabe:
“I don't see any sign of any performance that matches Darren's best and more importantly there's no enormous journey there either. Colin and Zoe were better but Darren's average was nearer to both the people above him than it was to Patsy behind him. He had 10 marks out of 13 over 30 in a series when marking was probably tougher. Darren had the best mark for two dances. Chris has done less well than 5 people so far - with 4 its a big difference - He has 4 marks over 30 out of 11 and hasn't been best at anything or best any week. Its the strong challenger with a strong story versus the Emperor with no clothes at all.

I can't see much problem with Jill, Natasha, Alesha or Mark and Darren was credible with a big and real story and an opponent who flunked the big dance at the end. That leaves Tom who was also much nearer to the best dancers and beat them some weeks even if overall he was not as good and was outdanced by someone for the last 6 weeks before the last dance. Chris would be truly unique.

The point about entertaining is circular - it turns into I like him and it doesn't necesarily have anything to do with whats shown or dancing. The partnership argument is untenable as an advantage - Ricky and Nathalie are reported to have a closer relationship and Ali and Brian obviously do. Its not even clear from ITT that Cola would win the Strictly Come Comedy Duos show if everyone was put in play for that.”

Actually, Tom was ahead of Lisa in points scored all the way through that series until the final two weeks, when it's generally accepted that there was a lot of overmarking - Rachel also only pulled away from him at that point.
Pawsa
02-12-2009
Originally Posted by bobbla:
“Well that in itself is a spiteful thing to say. I've never bashed Chris or started a thread on him and none of the regular posters on Ali and Brians appreciation thread have either ”

I agree. I'm an Ali and Brian fan and haven't posted any negative comments about the other dancers. I actually like Chris. It's just too easy for people to generalise us fans!
Kirsty Scot
02-12-2009
Originally Posted by sarahca:
“We had Mr Showman winning last year and Osmond won on the US show. Its all getting so predictable. If Hollins wins it will set such a pattern that I can see people really losing interest and switching off next year.”

It would not make me lose interest, quite the opposite. I would rather have someone who thank us for the votes, show me they are having fun, have an entertaining partnership and whilst holding down a day job are putting in the hours and improving.

You can keep the person who has obviously had balletic training, never thanks the public just turns to her po faced partner, both of whom show little or no personality, their training looks boring and uber competative, and are overmarked.

Strictly has always been about more than just the quality of dance otherwise Zoe Luker would still be in the competition.
Abbasolutely 40
03-12-2009
Originally Posted by Kirsty Scot:
“It would not make me lose interest, quite the opposite. I would rather have someone who thank us for the votes, show me they are having fun, have an entertaining partnership and whilst holding down a day job are putting in the hours and improving.

You can keep the person who has obviously had balletic training, never thanks the public just turns to her po faced partner, both of whom show little or no personality, their training looks boring and uber competative, and are overmarked.

Strictly has always been about more than just the quality of dance otherwise Zoe Luker would still be in the competition.”


As a matter of fact both Ali and Brian have thanked the public on numerous occasions, both on ITT and in interviews post show .

Its lovely to have a favouriteand I am rooting for Ali , and I would be happy to see Chris and Ola win , or indeed anyof them now , but why the need to put another one down to support who you like ,.
Jackster31
03-12-2009
Originally Posted by sarahca:
“We had Mr Showman winning last year and Osmond won on the US show. Its all getting so predictable. If Hollins wins it will set such a pattern that I can see people really losing interest and switching off next year.”

Oh no Team Cola are lovely. They should win.

It's always been a popularity test....don't kid yourselves now
mandyxxxx
03-12-2009
I don't think it will be a farce if/when Chris and Ola win Strictly. (They wouldn't be my choice, but since I haven't voted yet I can't really complain about that!).

Chris and Ola, with plenty of help from James, Claudia and admittedly a little from the BBC editors have done an absolutely brilliant job of creating a winning package.
Chris is an OK dancer which has given them a base, but the presentation of the "likeability factor" has been extremely cleverly done.
After all, Ola wasn't exactly popular until this year, lots of people seemed to believe her to be cold and overly ambitious to win (sound like anyone named Natalie this year?) and yet suddenly she is transformed into a national treasure with a bubbly fun personality.

In many ways it's what these type of shows are all about, give the public what they want and they will vote for you.
Much respect to team Cola and this includes all its supporting cast as well as the main players.
mimi dlc
03-12-2009
I've been a Chris supporter from the start, and would love to see him in a 3 team final.
However i'd be happy with an honorable 3rd place.
Behind Ricky and Ali.
or Ali and Ricky.
Eugenie
03-12-2009
Originally Posted by mandyxxxx:
“I don't think it will be a farce if/when Chris and Ola win Strictly. (They wouldn't be my choice, but since I haven't voted yet I can't really complain about that!).

Chris and Ola, with plenty of help from James, Claudia and admittedly a little from the BBC editors have done an absolutely brilliant job of creating a winning package.
Chris is an OK dancer which has given them a base, but the presentation of the "likeability factor" has been extremely cleverly done.
After all, Ola wasn't exactly popular until this year, lots of people seemed to believe her to be cold and overly ambitious to win (sound like anyone named Natalie this year?) and yet suddenly she is transformed into a national treasure with a bubbly fun personality.

In many ways it's what these type of shows are all about, give the public what they want and they will vote for you.
Much respect to team Cola and this includes all its supporting cast as well as the main players.”

I agree with you.

The fact is that Chris and Ola are popular. Personally, I like Ola but can’t see the appeal of Chris at all. I find all this “Ola Chops” and the very self aware taking of catchphrases and putting them on to t-shirts etc. very smug and irritating. In fact I have to say I find Chris smug and irritating in general, always have!

Something about Chris I just can’t warm to. Something about the way he speaks about his g/f and the fact that Ola is so “fit” etc. as well.

If they do win, it’s because a majority of people want them to. It is fairer if better dancers win but it is also an entertainment programme.

I don’t think there’s much credibility to be lost: Chris is just a Home Counties version of Tom.
FelineFantastic
03-12-2009
Originally Posted by mimi dlc:
“I've been a Chris supporter from the start, and would love to see him in a 3 team final.
However i'd be happy with an honorable 3rd place.
Behind Ricky and Ali.
or Ali and Ricky.”

Said it for me Mimi!

This would be the right result for me for two reasons- firstly its fair to the better dancers and secondly I am out of the country for the final so I would get to watch Cola until my last week!!

Selfish but who cares?!

If they go out this week I get next Saturday evening free so bonus but not so happy!
millie3
03-12-2009
Originally Posted by soyanut:
“People on here moaned like hell last year when Tom Chambers won. But he;s a zillion times better than the dire Hollins. Still it would be extremely boring for a watered down cheeky chappie sort to win again.”

If the majority agree with you he won't win and you can be happy. If the majority disagree and vote then he will win and only a few like yourself will think it boring.
Jan2555*GG*
03-12-2009
Originally Posted by Eugenie:
“
I don’t think there’s much credibility to be lost: Chris is just a Home Counties version of Tom.”

What does that mean are you trying to say Chris is 'posh' or something ??? Tom may have been from Derbyshire and not the south of England but he went to public school so hardly from a working class background.
ESPIONdansant
03-12-2009
What credibilty?
It's not a serious pro-dance contest.
It has plenty of credibility as a bit of froth at the weekend!
mindyann
03-12-2009
Originally Posted by ESPIONdansant:
“What credibilty?
It's not a serious pro-dance contest.
It has plenty of credibility as a bit of froth at the weekend!”


It's a programme that has featured as actual finalists Chris Parker and Julian Clary - I don't think credibility enters into it
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