Recently I filed a complaint with the BBC because they weren't providing the correct information to enable the HDR to record the News at One accurately.

Here is their reply:

Thank you for your e-mail.

I understand you've concerns relating to the crid data we broadcast. Our
Reception Advice team have provided the following response:

We send 'reactive triggers' to the EPGs for BBC One, BBC TWO, BBC THREE,
BBC FOUR, BBC HD, CBBC and CBeebies. This means that if a programme is
under or over-running the trigger will compensate and add or subtract the
extra few mins, meaning that PVR recordings should be kept intact.

However, BBC News, BBC Alba, BBC Parliament and the BBC Nations and Regions
use 'clockwork triggering'. Although this type of triggering does have a
late running offset to allow for over-runs, it cannot be as accurate as
reactive triggering, and there is a chance that PVR recordings may
occasionally be cut off by a few mins if the schedule is running late or
early. The BBC nations hope to adopt reactive triggering sometime next year
to combat this problem.

As a precaution, we advise you to set a buffer of 5 mins on your Humax HDR
for all BBC channels to avoid the possibility of recordings being cut off.

I hope this information is of some assistance and thanks again for
contacting us.

Regards

Tony Brown
BBC Complaints


Co-incidentally they seem to have been better this week. Starting bang on time and only cutting off a bit of the Weather.

I wonder who has the job of winding the key

Seems strange to exclude just a few.
One lucky region gets auto & the other regions take thier chances.
I always assumed BBC 1's news programs had priority for time slots.
The BBC charter includes Inform, educate & entertain as it main reasons for being.
News ticks all 3 boxes.

David

It's a problem with Seimens who provide the facilites. There is an ongoing dialogue with them over this on freesat. Complaints will help.

BBC Scotland first noticed this back in November and action was taken to remedy this for BBC Scotland's freesat epg playout.

I'm informed it's a highly complex system that takes time to diagnose issues.

I do hear other nations are dealing with it.

Do raise complaints, this will help the process along

J

I must say I'm a bit suprised that so few people have commented on this message from the BBC.

I assume that providing the info. to allow PVR's and HDR's to make accurately timed recordings is part of the spec. for both Freeview & Freesat yet our main, publically funded, broadcaster isn't doing it. I don't think that is very good especially for programmes like the News. And when you add in the output of the Nations & Regions it's a fair number of progs. that can't use AR reliably.

I also think it a bit odd / annoying that Humax, assuming they know about this, haven't bothered to share it with anyone. I would have thought an addendum in their manual and note on their website might have saved some folk a bit of head scratching.

Personally I'm not sure what to do about recording the News at One - I tend to use AR for everything but stopped using it for NaO because I hated the trailers that seem to precede the prog. and the fact they always cut short the weather forecast. I changed to fixed time recording every weekday and that worked until the 1.00.11 upgrade came along and then it failed beacuse the crids the BBC put out made the HDR think I wanted it to record 6 channels at the same time.

Considering the amount of money the BBC gets from the taxpayer and the huge number of they have earning £100K+ (some many times that) I think they should get their fingers out and sort it.

I think that more people complain the sooner they'll fix it.

Here is the link I used https://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/forms/

I didn't respond originally, because it all looked rubbish to me, and I couldn't be bothered with it.

I don't know whether it was your original complaint to them, or their email response, is inaccurate, but CRIDs have nothing whatsover to do with Accurate Recording, they are used for Scheduling only.

Also, I can't believe they are talking about all programmes on Regions or Nations, otherwise we would be flooded with complaints about AR inaccuracies, and by & large, the Freesat/HDR implementation of AR is usually very accuarate.

Bear in mind that everyone's BBC1 is a "Region", so I think they must only be talking about the regional opt-in programmes such as local news etc, which are "Clockwork", by which I take it follows the EPG scheduled time rather than finely updating the EITp/f (although they obviously do stick these clockwork triggers in the EITp/f). This would explain some of the odd behaviour seen on the i-plate on Now/Next with these types of programes.

I didn't know that the "Nations" had opt-ins like this, but again, I can't see it on all programmes otherwise we would have seen many more complaints on "non-News" type programmmes.

I could be wrong with this, but the reply, read on face value, does not make entire sense.

I disagree with your comment on Humax, it is not their "to-do" to comment on BBC failings or add things to the manual that could be changed by the broadcasters.

Rgds.


Les

Les,

My complaint to the BBC wasn't about AR, it said: Inaccurate or insufficient crid data being transmitted to allow Foxsat HDR to function correctly.

And followed my inability to record News at One and the local news that follows it after upgrading to V.1.00.11. Apparently it was because I had 2 additional BBC region in my EPG and the BBC weren't sending the correct info. to allow the HDR to differentiate between them. It's all in the thread "Something odd..." to which you kindly contributed by posting he link to the BBC complaints page.

I still think it would do no harm for Humax to point out some (temporary) shortcomings in the box's advertised features due to events outside Humax's control.

bsw

Yes, I remember your thread, which was all about Scheduling due to CRID data. That's why I couldn't understand why the BBC's reply went so off-track talking about AR and the "triggers", which are nothing to do with Scheduling.

Mind you, it wouldn't be the first reply that I had from a broadcaster that tried to answer a completely different question from the one I had actually asked

Rgds.

Les.

All the issues are related. Siemans run the playout of the data you have issues with for freesat as well as the other platforms we use. This is linked to ar and the crid data, and so many regions means added complications.

Hope that clarifies

J

youdiph,

No it it doesn't clarify at all.

AR has nothing to do with CRID data, I can assure you.

If you have more detailed information, please expand, if you have the information.

Rgds.


Les.

Les
they are related in the fact they come from the same playout system provided and run by Sieman's which have issues in accuracy of data.

J

youddiph,

You are avoiding the question.

They may be loosely related in terms that they come from the same playout system, but, unless you provide evidence otherwise, AR does not use CRID to trigger the recording Stop/Start.

I'm sorry to be so confrontational, but I'm pretty sure of my facts here, and very rarely do Industry Insiders post on here, and they only hint vaguely at information.

I do, honestly, welcome your detailed explanation about how a Series & Prog CRID can affect AR triggers, which are actually controlled by Event_ID in EITp/f, not CRID.

Rgds.


Les.

Les

Alas, I would like to provide an answer but I am unable at this time. I am not in anyway providing an explanation of what how or why. Just to relay that the issue is identified and is ongoing.

I'm from the part of the BBC who first raised the issue. So I can in no way provide what you ask in any capacity just what we have been told.

I am sorry if that is not the response you were looking for but be assured the issue is being looked at.

Late night regards
J

J

RedBee is actually the Metadata provider, so where Metadata is missing it is between them and the BBC.

How that helps I don't know, but if you log specific instances of missing/incorrect data then the BBC will be more fit to address the issues with their service partners.

Bob

Bob_Cat

Nice to hear from you.

Yes, Red Bee Media do all playout but the system is provided for by Siemans.

Our phone system is provided for by Siemans and is still going through teething issues.

J