Ok RTD gets a hard time in these forums. However, it is perfectly right for people to criticise if his writing does not live up to their expectations. It doesn't make it fact, but it is an opinion people are allowed to air. I certainly will be if his send off does not honour David Tennant appropriately.

Let's not start getting into censorship. Its the RTD fanatics who refuse to see any negatives in his writing that offend me more. Yes there are some extreme RTD haters, but it also seems that as soon as you do criticise him you are called a RTD basher when actually it is about being objective.

That's a matter of opinion. JNT's era was my era, and I'd still much rather watch 90% of eighties Who rather than most of the new series episodes. I don't rate Davies' writing at all. He can't write a decent resolution to save his life and his plots are frequently full of holes.

As, of course, is this:

i think RTD is a good writer, he just makes silly decisions in his scripts. its like i will like half of his episode, but i find the other half dreadful. im glad hes going

And quite often it's not about being objective, it's about bashing him - and fairly often with large helpings of homophobia and/or racism added to the meal.

I'd love to see some examples of those fanatics who don't see any negatives in his writing.

ok i just read this and want to say i didn't mean it to sound like i was bashing rtd when i said "RT had watched Flash Gordern and Return of the Jedi the night before he wrote the script" i was just comenting on the similarities, love rtd without him we wouldnt be getting new Who. I Love the ending was a homage to thsoe films and cant wait to see what happens in the end of time.

Hmm...it is strange why some people don't like RTD's writing. Of course, everyone has an opinion and is 100% entitled to it, but in my probably inferior opinon: I believe his writing has been really good.

If so many people thought it was bad, I am sure the new series of Doctor Who would never have got off the ground. RTD did a LOT of episodes for the 9th and 10th Doctors.

The first of Series 1 (the 9th Doctor) really drew me in to Doctor Who and I enjoyed it a lot. I guess sometimes his writing was lacking and his plots didn't develop into a truly good story...but IMHO his writing in Queer as Folk; Casanova and Doctor Who has been fantastic.

I don't know if I will miss him, as the Moff wrote some of my favourite episodes.

We'll see how well it does in time

Absolutely it is. I'm also a child of the 80s, my doctor being McCoy, but I find most of Davison boring and C.Baker pretty much unwatchable, even though I consider him to be a capable enough actor and have no issues with the Doctor being a bit pompous generally. It just seems like at some point someone decided to cut the script budget to all-but-zero and embrace the child audience rather than the family audience. Which isn't to say that children can't handle sophisticated material, just that when TV executives set out to target the child audience they rarely seem to realise that.

But, yes, just my opinion. I think part of it may be that JNT wasn't allowed to leave when he wanted to, which has to have affected his creative vision one way or the other. RTD's doing exactly the right thing leaving now, having reinvigorated and all-but reinvented the show in a way that makes it not just relevant to TV today but pretty much definitive of TV today.

And if you read my post again, I am acknowledging that there are people who dislike RTD in and extreme fashion, but distinguishing it from when people criticise him objectively. This thread immediately assumes that because people find something they dislike in his writing that they are haters.

I am also aware that some extreme RTD bashers use the non-existent gay agenda to add to their venom. This is something I dislike intensely, because it is such ill-founded hatred.

As for examples of fanatics, I am not going to start listing names of posters who are not part of this discussion. But I have fallen victim to one or two, who have basically told me my opinion means nothing because RTD knows best and can't do any wrong. I once made a point that I would like the emotion in the finale to be underplayed rather than overt sentiment. I got told that the finals are shot and in the can, so therefore whatever I hope from them is irrelevant. Now tell me that isn't offensive.

There have been numerous posters over the years who refuse to accept any criticism of him, surely this thread telling people not to criticise him is an example. I have also seen downright rudeness and bullying in response to poster's speculation, or criticism of an RTD story.


These forums are about opinions, and the opinions should be varied. But this thread seems to be suggesting that there have already been vast amounts of RTD bashing going on. If you can direct me to where it is, then I'd like to read them because the majority of posts I have read so far in the run up to the specials are filled with enthusiasm and anticipation. Surely likening a clip to scenes from other movies does not equate to RTD bashing?

best

Yeah that was really annoying....and then when Karen was announced, a few people went about how he was turning Doctor Who into Hollyoaks.




Agree, and the same goes for all his finales. The people we care about are affected and stay affected, whether trough a regeneration, being abandond, ending up in a parallel world, or having your memories wiped.



Exactly....



As above....you cannot be objective in these things. Criticism, as praise for his writing, is all subjective. By your suggestion any criticism is objective...how??? For example I know you have mentioned in the past that the finales are too overblown emotionally...I don't think they are. Who is right..who is wrong. Your entitled to feel like that, and so am I. If I don't see many negatives in his writing, I can't help it, I just don't, I don't purposely think..."oh I am going to ignore every negative point there is" mainly, because I sit down to watch it, then decide if I enjoyed and why I did, and if not then why, and sometimes the positives out weigh the negatives a lot for me, again, I can't help it, its the way I feel. That doesn't make my opinion less than anyone who is rubbishes the whole story.So why should that offend you?...my feelings are not disrespectful or hurtful to someone, they are not bigoted feelings, they are just feelings that enjoy a story written by RTD. We can both argue our reasons to why we feel this worked for me, and why it didn't work for you, but that too will never become objective. Take the comedy element, and the mime scene in PIC. I found that really hillarious, still do. But I know others don't. I have never stuck a knife up to them and told them they better laugh too. That would be stupid of me. And would be offensive.

Anyway, for me criticising RTD's writing and bashing RTD are two very very different things. One can say that they found Midnight boring and that the plot resolution of Journey's End didn't work for them. The Bashing starts when people say things like calling him names because he wrote a story that they didn't like, or accusing him of having agendas, or comparing him to Moff to prove what a rubbish writer he is, when the funny thing is the things they say they hate about him, are the very things that Moff does too....so it seems to be more just about writing when people can't be consistant in their criticism, for example gay references, plot holes, DEMs, repeats of ideas, romance, technobabble, scary/darkness, smuty jokes...all which exist in both Moff and RTD's work...yet one gets hanged for it, and the other doesn't. And that is what annoys me. Not the criticism itself. Because like I said, if something worked for me, I don't expect it to have worked for someone else, but I will share why it did, as I know those who didn't like it would. And also there is large voice, rather than a large amount of people, who tell those who do enjoy something, that we shouldn't have. Like someone said to me on this very forum about JE, and threw Blink in my face to show why I shouldn't like JE...

So basically if there are RTD extreme fans out there (and there are) who say you must like it no matter what...there are people out there who tell you that you shouldn't like it....and forget that you cannot be objective in these things...


Oh and another thing in regards to people saying that RTD is bad writer because he has plot holes in his stories, I would one day love to read or watch something that didn't have a single plot hole....any recommendations anyone????? Yes there is hardly anything that doesn't have some sort of plot holes, and if I thought to myself that I am not going to like something if it has plot holes, then I would end up liking nothing at all...we all have different reasons to why we like something or another, and I am not going to let a plot hole get in the way if there is so much more that I enjoyed....otherwise stories like Blink also wouldn't be a great watch either. Yes it has plot holes, believe it or not

Maybe I didn't put things very well. I meant that there is a difference in opinions that purely bash the crap out of RTD, without any let up, and those who in their criticism try to remain objective. Objective in the sense that you accept other people's point of view too. So even though opinions are subjective in their nature, you can be objective about how you express them, by accounting for the positives of RTD, next to your negatives.

I think I'm even confusing myself. But then I am confused about this thread, because it suggests extreme bashing has occurred with regards to the finale. I haven't seen such bashing.

I also don't like the implication of the thread that any negative opinion should not be aired.

best

Oh...sorry I get what you mean.....I think

No I do really

Maybe you need to get out more?? ... It's objective because I really don't like RTD scripts at all and my post was trying to be balanced none-the-less. Thanks for the English lesson but I'll get by if it's all the same to you.. By the way you might want to revisit the word PATRONISING

You're smarter than me then, because I've completely lost myself.

Yes, if anyone thinks a new era of internet peace and non-moaning will begin under Moffat, then they're sadly deluded.

People bitch and moan and pin what they don't like about the entire series on the the head honcho. This isn't exclusive to Who either. Berman and Braga (justifiably!), Whedon, (perhaps not!), The Stargate Guys, JJ Abrams (the new Enterprise looked cool dammit! ), Ron D. Moore and many more have all been through it and Moffat will have his fare share of hasing too the second he does something to annoy fandom...
(Dammit SM, WHY make the TARDIS look like it did in the old days? You should be looking FORWARDS not BACKWARDS! )

As for the great RTD writing debate, It entirely depends on the way you look at it.
You can look at the show as developing the characters, or furthering the overall plot of the "Whoniverse"

When it comes to characters, he is very strong. Overarching plots, knowing exactly what they'd do at any one time, wrapping them all up nicely by season's end and having wheels within wheels so there can be a few suprises.
Look at Donna's arc, nicely planned, probably planned from Journey's End backwards, showing her developing and growth as a companion cruelly taken from her by series end....

The backdrop to which these developments take place and the manner in which they develop you could argue is not so strong. Having regeneration energy be the basis for Donna's part-time lord guise annoyed the fans, keeping the Cybermen occupied with the Daleks so Rose and her family re-union could take place unhindered perhaps more so.
But you know in RTD's mind (and you could argue, the majority of viewers agree), the important parts are having The Doctor and Donna sychronised and acting as one because it's important character development and not the fact they merely pressed a few buttons to destroy the Daleks, that is of secondary importance...

And I for one, agree with him. I don't want to have to sit through a complicated technobabble filled scene as the Doctor-Donna put a more complex Dalek destroy plan into action, time was running out and it was much more interesting to see the TARDIS full of companions sharing fun moments (I got much more fun out of a 3-second Rose-Martha hug than I ever would have a complicated techincal Dalek ending scene!) than waste time ending the Daleks...

This annoys some people, and fair enough if that is what you come to Dr Who expecting to see.
But to others it does and that's the majority of why you get so much varying opinions on the episode review threads here...

As for Moffat, I don't imagine much changing. Characters are his primary focus too.
I simply cannot believe he got away with the cliffhanger resolution in Forest of the Dead without too much ire!
Doctor in peril, little girl watching it on TV gets scared and changes channel, changes back and escape has happened!
(talk about your Red Dwarf approach to cliffhangers! )
If that had been RTD he'd have been hauled over the coals!

But that's a minor way of emphasis the same point really, what matters is the character moments, not the technobabble. RTD and SM agree on this point

Lets hope RTD doesn't mess the finale up - like he usually does with the series endings.

Hmmm....the AI's say different tbh. Fairer to say that elements of fandom think he messes the finales up?

And actually even then, only LOTTL isn't rated that well on here if you look at the episode polls. The Stolen Earth is joint top with Blink.

While I agree RTD is very good at creating and developing characters, I don't understand the whole 'plot vs characters' argument. It is possible to do both. That's not to say masses of technobabble are required- the nanogenes in TEC/TDD didn't require much explanation to work- just that interesting character development doesn't mean you need to forego a good plot and resolution that makes sense.

NB- I am not suggesting that none of RTDs plot resolutions make sense! Some I like, some I don't, same goes for other writers too.

I checked the dictionary, all I found under patronising was your picture.

That wasn't an attempt at an English lesson. If I were going to do that, I'd start with your appalling misuse of punctuation before I'd even think to question your vocabulary.

It was your attempt to be fair, but it was not, could not, be objective. Not possible.

As another point (wow, I'm making a lot tonight... must be the excitement at the oncoming EoT), I believe that the only airtight plot in the universe is the universe itself. Anything else is going to elide details for the sake of narrative. I'm happy with that, as long as the narrative's needs are served. Others may not be, but personally I'd find such a show insufferably dull

I don't believe Doctor Who would work as a high-concept, hard scifi show. It has time travel, and faster-than-light travel and all sorts of tricks that are so far down the road of narrative physics, that I believe you may as well embrace that road fully rather than be diffident about it. If it weren't for the soft science, Doctor Who couldn't possibly exist; it wouldn't have the narrative devices it needs to tell the stories it wants to tell. It wouldn't have the TARDIS. If I want hard scifi, I look to other things. Doctor Who for me is about people first, and the scifi is just an enabler for that.

I agree. Look at Star Trek...
For all its hero worshipping, the Enterprise is just the device that gets them into interesting situations.
As soon as they try to explain their futuristic technology, they plunge into science that A)Bored the casual view B) Pisses off the scientist types because it disagrees with the latest findings on whatever area it is they are covering that week!

You end up falling between two stools....

Probably better to have the Doctor wink at the camera, press a few buttons, smack it with a hammer, jump through a glass plane on a horse, pilot down the M1 with string, etc etc than bother explaining how it works.

Like in all of Doctor Who, have they EVER bothered explaining how the "bigger on the inside" thing actually WORKS?
In Trek they'd be coming up with all kinds of terms like "interphasically cloaked except for the access point leading to excess power demands that makes the ship tempremantal" etc etc, which takes a hell of a lot of time to say nothing. (A lot like my posts!)

In Dr Who, it's just "bigger on the inside. Now, lets move on"

I see you still haven't managed to get out more....

This post is report worthy imo.

He could've had those thoughts while "out" You know nothing of how much he is "out"

In regards to RTD I always have taken his stories as they come. For example he writes some great stuff (Turn Left, utopia Children of Earth ect) and sometimes he write's a complete turd (Love & Monsters is perhaps the worse bit of TV I have ever seen)

The bolded bit is the important bit and we'll never know. Had Steven Moffat been in charge from day one we might have had the same or greater success or we might have bombed in the first season. It's an irrelevance as it can never be answered (not without a Tardis anyway)

What I do find interesting is the increased number of people happy to see the back of RTD. It seems to be the case that once an actor, writer or any member of the Doctor Who staff leaves the show they get branded as the enemy. People may not like my views on the show but I've at least been consistant in my dislike of RTD.