A lot of people seem to think that becayse Rose was continuously mentioned throughout series three this kind of 'cursed' Freema's role as Martha. However, has anyone actually thought maybe that was the intetion?

In 'Utopia' for example, Captain Jack speaks to the doctor of Rose from the battle of canary wharf, in which Martha looks glum and says 'yeah, good old rose'. That's when it struck me that Martha had to accept being second best into which the rose refernces were needed.

It may sound stupid or pointless (thread wise lol) but has anyone else thought this?

RTD has said in interviews before that it was planned that Martha was second to Rose, it was by accident at all.

Well of course it was intentional. It's not a docmentary after all. People who think Martha was badly treated by the Doctor or overshadowed by Rose realise it was a conscious decision by RTD and the rest of the creative team. It's not a decision they agree with.

And after The Doctor told Jack Rose was trapped in Pete's World, that's when she accepted it and from that point she and Rose would have become friends.

The Doctor had accepted Martha as his companion at that point though and she'd more than held her own as a companion. It took a while but Martha really grew into the role and while she was second best for a while she really proved herself in the second half of the year.

There was some dialogue cut from Last of the Timelords which put the whole Martha/Rose thing into context a little better.

I think "second best" is quite demeaning really for all that Martha was and became. Yes there was the ghost of Rose and the treatment by the Doctor that RTD and Co had purposely put in. But for me that wasn't to prove that Martha was second best, it was bout Martha finding her own place and position with the Doctor, climbing that mountain that was Rose in terms of her trying to compete for the Doctor's affection, and in the end just becoming Martha, not Rose. As it should be. And I think the defining statement of this all was when even the Master tries to belittle the efforts that Martha put in by going across the globe and doing the Doctor's work, by saying that his past companions did better things ie looked into the vortex. And the fact that Martha had the last laugh when the Master was defeated due to her so called lesser actions, showed that she did her way, and because she was Martha Jones.


Basically the whole Doctor treating her badly and the ghost of Rose was a story arc for Martha and her character. From a strong educated girl who gets swept off her feet by a an out of this world man, and gets caught up in trying to win him over, and realises that she doesn't need him in the end, and that she is a very strong and brilliant person, and as she says to the Doctor "I spent a lot of time with you thinking I was second best...but you know what..I am good!" And the Doctor knew it too.

Beautifully put as always, crazzyaz7. I agree with every word. For me, Martha's journey from lovesick puppy to strong independent woman was one of the most important things about series 3.

I agree, but would still have preferred it if she'd got over him sooner or wasn't in love with him at all- she was a strong independent woman beforehand! Martha was intelligent, she should have been questioning and challenging the Doctor, but she was too desperate for his approval, which is a great shame.


I'd be interested to hear that, if you know what would have been said?

For me, the narrative would have been weaker if Martha had gotten over the Doctor so fast. These narratives aren't meant to be nice and tidy, with the characters doing things we could only dream of, but rather they're meant to carry some message. How boring would it be if the characters always did the right thing, acted perfectly right and resolved any problems with only the most cursory of issues? What would such a resolution tell us, except that we could never hope to be so perfect? No, Martha's realisation of her own strength by the testing of her character and resolve in the face of extreme adversity is a narrative point, and indeed (in my opinion) the main narrative point of series 3. She isn't an assistant to the Doctor-as-hero, but rather realises that she is the real hero. This is something we should all realise about ourselves; we can face adversity and win simply by our own character.

There is a rhythm to narratives much like music. Part of the strength of a writer is their ability to intuitively understand these rhythms and to compose them so that the whole mess of concepts comes together into a singular whole. Great writers produce perfect moments of narrative rhythm.

I'm personally glad that the new Doctor Who carries such narratives, rather than just being a series of plot-based vignettes without any depth of message. I'd have long ago become bored and stopped watching if Doctor Who turned into such a dull show. I hope that it continues for a long a time in the same vein.

Yes, I wasn't able to respect her because her falling for him was so instant and undeserved. He snogged her and that was it.

RTD explored unrequited love in Queer as Folk, but Vince and Stuart had been best friends since they were children. I coud never really believe that Martha fell for the Doctor so hard, so quickly and for so little reason.

As Donna put it, "Mad Martha that one. Blind Martha. Charity Martha."

Keeping all this in mind, I still feel the part in Journey's End where Martha sees The Doctor and Rose together again at last and says "Oh my god, he found you, he finally found you!" without a hint of bitterness is a lovely moment, ditto their hug/larking about with Daleks at the end of the episode...

They could've been good friends them two, Doctor aside!

I totally agree. The adoring way she was talking about him in Gridlock seemed way over the top, bearing in mind how recently she'd met him. She was a sassy clued-up student doctor in Smith & Jones, but she seemed to have gone all soppy after just a couple of adventures.

I did like the moment in Gridlock when the Doctor said "It's been a while since I've seen you, Martha Jones" with a bit of a twinkle in his eye. I wished they'd had a bit more of that mutual twinkliness instead of turning the series into an unrequited love story. Not that I wanted a love affair...just a bit of a harmless "spark" on both sides here and there, instead of endless poignant moments when Martha looked hurt because the Doctor had inadvertently trampled on her feelings.

I hadn't thought of it before....but now you mention it - the writers did rush into the whole emotional thing. I mean it had been 2, or 3 episodes since she met him and already she was talking aout how much she loved him and looked teary all the time.

Maybe they shoould have waited longer before showing Martha as being so attatched to the doctor: she hardly knew him. Though as I say that, I do believe in love at first site and she did actually say: "I don't even know him" or something along those lines.

Meh.I dont know what I'm really trying to say here. very bad at wording things. Dont kill me XD

One genetic transfer was all it took and Martha was hooked, became a different person. The Doctor was still hurting over Rose, it was the obvious story arc really.

I thought you expressed it perfectly. As you say, the love at first sight theme is actually quite believable...we've all been there! And the great thing about Martha was the way she found the strength to walk away, which was a very empowering and inspiring moment. When she said "This is me, getting out", you really felt that she'd grown and discovered her own strength.

I guess we can all believe that everyone falls under the Doctor's spell because DT is so charismatic and sort of draws people in. It'll be interesting to see whether Matt Smith has the same magnetism.

I
I did an acting workshop where I was given some Who script extracts. What caught my eye was that for the girls, the Martha scene was the finale from LotT with some extra dialogue, which sort of explains where Martha was at and now is, and also from Partners In Crime, where Donna discovers how old the Doctor is.

If I can find the original workshop docs, I will gladly share tomorrow.

People fall head over heals for lesser reasons than a genetic transfer....I should know...been there done that got the T-shirt. And being treated badly doesn't always put people off...seeing it happen to a friend...and love makes the most intelligent person act like a right old idiot!!! Even become someone that isn't really you....

But Martha, met this stranger, who most tend to find charasmatic the moment they set their eyes on him, heck he had me on the word "run" in series one...and then Martha sees him trying to take control of when they all end up on the Moon, and later, after the kiss, give his life up so the Plasmavor can be caught, and then like a dream disappear of into the distant....it may have been just a crush...but sometimes the lines between a crush and love are blurred. Like I said, people fall for others for less than what Martha saw in this man she called the Doctor. I mean Rose ended up leaving her mum and Boyfriend behind because of this mysterious stranger....So why couldn't Martha???

Yes one could argue that "oh we have been there done that, lets not do it again"....but its not impossible to happen again....quite natural actually...and at least it had a different outcome...including the Doctor who then became more determined to just have a friend...and Donna, being the age she was, after probably many lovesick Martha experiences of her own, and who she was, naturally wasn't going to fall for the Doctor in the same way as Martha and Rose did....but love him she did....

Yes, Rose ran off with him. And I had no objection to Martha doing the same. But Rose's love grew slowly, as she grew to know him. Rose had two series to fall in love with him, while Martha had only one in which to fall in and out of it.

It's just not the story arc I would have chosen. I'd have prefered a relationship more like the one he had with Donna, or at least one where he was kinder to her. It's not only that Martha loved someone who didn't love her back, it's that she loved someone who really treated her quite shabbily. Really no excuse for that. His loss of Rose was much fresher in Runaway Bride and he treated Donna much better.

Excellent points, especially the last sentence.

The thing I didn't like about the "Martha crush" theme, was the way it seemed to portray a certain type of one-sided relationship in which the "less involved" party is almost wilfully cruel to the "hopelessly smitten" party. True, we've all been there, and yes it is realistic....but we thought the Doctor was better than that. And it sort of reduced the story to something a bit too soapy....the standard "I love him but he doesn't know I exist" sort of theme. Martha seemed to have more spirit than that (although I always end up coming back to the fact that anyone would fall for the Doctor, I guess).

I'd have accepted it better if there had been some hint that a genetic transfer can have the side-effect of making the recipient fall hopelessly in love with the giver!

Sorry, rambling...shouldn't post in a hurry...apologies if the above makes no sense!

Indeed he did. I wonder if part of the reason he treated Martha so badly was because he was put off by her feelings for him, which wasn't an issue with Donna? Or maybe he felt more able to empathise with Donna- after all, he was watching her lose the man she loved in an even worse manner- finding out he'd been using her all along as part of the Racnoss' scheme, on their weddding day no less. She might have been a bit shouty during that episode, but still, you wouldn't wish that on anyone Poor Donna, she thought she'd found the man of her dreams and he turned out to be not only a horrible person, but a giant spider's pet!

Althought we learned later on in the series that he's not only not better than that, he's a good deal worse than that. At least he didn't abandon Martha on a space station millions of years out of her time. And come to think of it - wasn't everyone but Jack dead at that point? Pretty nasty place to leave someone.



Interesting - in another thread (about who should play the Master after John Simm), someone suggested an actor and someone else snearingly said that the BBC wouldn't cast a black actor as a villain. But that's nonsense. Donna's fiancé was clearly a villain - arguably more of a villain than the Racnoss empress, as he was betraying his species.

One thing we have to keep in mind in all this is that the Doctor, Martha, Donna, et al aren't real. Their actions are the result of a story that RTD wanted to tell. So all my criticism of the Doctor for cruelty or Martha for being foolish is really criticism of RTD choosing to tell that story over another one. It wasn't the story I was expecting when we were told about Martha - I was thinking here's this bright, ambitious young woman with a larger, educated, successful family - an interesting contrast to the Tylers. Her family was also badly served by the scripts. Except for her mother, they were barely developed at all, and because of her mother being deceived by Mr Saxon, it was never possible to warm to her either.

As a viewer, I loved Martha when she first joined the show. She was clever and funny, and seemed more on a level with the Doctor than Rose had been.

But within a few episodes, she seemed to be written differently and there was this whole "unrequited love" thing going on.

A great shame because season 3 is superb and Martha could have been brilliant. Even more of a shame is that it made me begin to dislike Rose, even though she wasn't in the programme anymore.

I don't feel that Rose's love grew slowly....her acceptance came slowly to us as the audience, definitely...but there were huge hints that both Rose and the Doctor loved each, or fancied each other or whatever (and no I don't believe they are soulmates, one was a bored teenage girl, who met a very fascinating man, and the other was a lonely Timelord with a baggage, and she just happend to be the one he was able to share it with, and therefore loved her for it). For example, even though Rose herself didn't declare her "love" for the Doctor untill Doomsday, they were practically suggesting that they were in love for example when Rose says to Mickey that he is more than a boyfriend, Adam suggests that he can't compete with the Doctor, and Rose doesn't really deny it, heck even the Dalek knew!! So even though Rose may not mention it, there are many hints that there is feelings between both that goes futher than friendship...

But the difference between Martha and Rose is that, Rose started off as not really being admittant to it, to becoming more and more needy and jealous at times, one day would have come that she would have wanted to go that extra step as such. But Martha on the other hand, started off needy (in terms of her feelings), but became more independent, and realistic of her feelings towards the Doctor. Because they are both different, and different people handle things differently. If they had done a similar thing with Martha as they had done with Rose ie admitting that she was in love with him two series down the line...then it would have definitely been a repeat of what we had with Rose. and then basically Martha would have been just like Rose. But the unrequited love story did make it different, and personalised Martha's journey with the Doctor.

In terms of Donna, well lets not forget they were both not very nice to each other at the start!!! So I would agree with Shinyteapot here...but on top of that, I feel the Doctor became a busy bee, therefore had less chance to think about making quips at Donna in the same way he had with Martha. Plus who knows how long he was by himself before he met Martha, and therefore she became the official companion to travel with him after Rose, and in his head comparisons started, and seeing Martha's interest in him, his reaction was to ignore. And sometimes that idiot sent out the wrong messages. He could have not kissed her, or at least told her that this is a genetic transfer, he just kissed her and said it doesn't mean anything (yeah whatever) . And yes she knew afterwards why, but that doesn't stop or make her forget the feelings that she felt at the time.





Your right, ofcousre they are not real. And really I should be a bit clear when I am trying to explain things in that I am not asking anyone to agree with me, or to start saying that you shouldn't be annoyed with another love story because I am not. No, all I am doing is explaining why I feel it makes sense, especially in hindsight. I knew there was going to be an unrequited love story, as RTD had said so interviews, so maybe I was ready for it. But what made it much easier for me is that Martha become a better person for it, and the Doctor was able to come to terms with knowing that he could have a companion around him without the need to keep pushing them away because he is scared to get as close as he did with Rose (and at the same time sending mix messages, he had a chance to clear the air many times, like after the family of Blood where Martha for the first time makes it clear she loves him)...hence Donna, and making sure where they stand before he let her on baord the Tardis. I would have got annoyed if Martha had continued this unrequited love story, in the same way I get annoyed with my friend who keeps going back to the guy that treats her so badly (and yes even the Doctor hasn't been that bad to Martha compared to this guy!!)...so basically even though I agree that RTD and co chose to these themes, and ideas, they could have not made her fancy him and so forth....but because I like the way the Doctor's character has developed due to having Martha falling for him, it really feels like a natural progression for the character, and for Martha, who then would have just been a companion, yes strong minded, clever, educated, grounded, and something to go back home to. It may have worked, it may not have, but I have to admit....that this so called perfect Martha, is a bit boring. The love sick puppy gave her a flaw, whivh in the end made her an even better person.

Rose went with the Doctor, because she was a bored shop girl, and had a boring boyfriend...and a boring life...and fell in love with this extra-ordinary man....which became her downfall...but she become stronger and confident to fight aliens and monsters....but she can't get over the Doctor.

Martha, everything going for her, education, carear...but she became a fool in love, only to realise that she is better than that, and now fights aliens, has got married to a man she loves and respects the Doctor and still cares for him deeply....

Donna, Lance made her feel worthless, she already felt like that, but she was good at pretending and accepting that life was great, and it was all about the X factor and latest pringle flavour, what else was there in the world, but the Doctor made her feel special, and she wanted to walk in the dust to be special, not because she was bored (as we see she enjoyed temping)...and when she finally does accept that she is specail...everthing that made her realise so is taken away from her...



You see all those three stories end in different ways, and I think they not only make sense it making the characters normal and real, but also have a proper character developments, even if we don't like these developments....but that is what brings the reality of it. It would be nice if everything had a happy ending (the irony is that the person that was treated the worst actually does)...and life was smooth...but it isn't. And I like that RTD and Co bring that into it. And in the end...all that happens to the companions, has a big effect on the Doctor too...

We will probably never agree...but all I am saying is that for me these threads and themes work....more so in hidsight.

Here's the extra dialogue from Last of the Timelords when Martha leaves, which references Rose:

THE DOCTOR
Martha Jones, you saved the world.

MARTHA
Yes I did! I spent a lot of time with you, thinking I was second
best. But d'you know what? I wasn't.

THE DOCTOR
She'd have liked you.

MARTHA
I'd have hated her.

(Both laugh. Then, quieter)

MARTHA (CONT'D)
You gonna be all right?

THE DOCTOR
Always, yeah.

(Pause, silence)

MARTHA
Right then. If I stay in here, I'll talk myself out of it. Bye -

(She gives him a quick kiss)

(Turns, runs away down the ramp)

------

And just out interest, if anyone wants the extra dialogue from Partners In Crime:

DONNA (CONT'D)
- I don't need injections, do I? Y'know, like when you go to
Cambodia, is there any of that? Cos my friend Veena went to Bahrain, and... you're not saying very much.

THE DOCTOR
No! Just, um... travelling with me, you don't think you're, um..

DONNA
Don't think I'm what?

THE DOCTOR
A bit too, sort of...

(oh God)

Old?

DONNA
Oy! How old are you, spaceman?

THE DOCTOR
Nine hundred and three.

DONNA
Well then!

(beat)

How old?!

THE DOCTOR
No, but it's just... It's a funny old life, in the Tardis, it's not...

-----

Well I'm glad they cut that out...as now its stays all about Martha...not Rose...although the "I'd have hated her" is past tense, meaning that she had come to terms with not being jealous anymore....

I've read that PIC one...can't remember where....Old??? How dare he!!!!!!


Oh by the way...thanks for that!!