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New Humax FOXSAT-HDR Freesat+ HDMI Problem


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Old 21-12-2009, 19:17
Johnny Blue
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Last week I bought and installed a Humax FOXSAT-HDR Freesat+ 320GB HD PVR Digital Box.

I have installed it and it has automatically downloaded the latest software, and scanned for channels receivable, and seemed to work fine. I have both SCART and HDMI cables connected to my TV (so I can compare the difference in quality: new toy syndrome!).

However, twice now I have turned on the Humax HDR and the HDMI output does not work (no picture or sound). The Humax box is obviously still working OK, because the screen on the box's front shows the channel, etc., and in any case the picture and sound are both fine through the SCART connection (which is inferior in quality to the HDMI connection, even on non-HD channels).

The first time I had this problem (2 days ago) I resolved it by resetting the Humax HDR (factory reset) so obviously I had to go through the opening set-up palaver again, and re-scan for channels, etc. However, today the problem has reappeared and I realise that there must be an issue somewhere: I do not want to have to reset and scan for channels every time I turn on the box!

Any ideas or suggestions as to a solution please? (I hope it's not as simple as removing the SCART lead, because the Humax doesn't like to have 2 connections to the same TV?)
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Old 21-12-2009, 19:22
soulboy77
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... Any ideas or suggestions as to a solution please? (I hope it's not as simple as removing the SCART lead, because the Humax doesn't like to have 2 connections to the same TV?)
Isn't that the obvious thing try?
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Old 21-12-2009, 19:54
Ike1998
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You need to select the input source on your TV via the TV remote. ie: Scart or HDMI 1
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Old 21-12-2009, 20:00
Ike1998
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You need to set the input source on your TV when you have HDMI and other sources connected. Set this using the remote by pressing the source key and selecting either HDMI or Scart.
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Old 21-12-2009, 23:14
markt22m
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Assuming you've checked you've got the TV set to the correct input setting for your HDMI port, you might have the same problem as I have with my TV.

What type of TV do you have?

When you turned on the HDR, was it recording at the time?

If so, i've found the only way to get picture/sound back is to hit the Stop button (to stop it recording) on the remote, turn off the HDR so it goes into a deep sleep, and then turn it back on.
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Old 22-12-2009, 08:38
Johnny Blue
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Thanks for the replies.

I haven't tried disconnecting the SCART lead, because when everything's in situ it's a pig to get at the rear of any of the equipment, and the 50" Orion plasma (LG rebrand) doesn't lend itself to getting behind it! Also, I can't believe that this should be the cause of the problem.

The TV is set to HDMI input (unless I change it to SCART) so that is not the problem.

The problem arises when I turn the Humax on, having previously watched perfectly well on HDMI, and the only connection that works is the SCART cable. (And, no, not when it's recording.)

I discovered last night that I don't have to reset the Humax box to get the HDMI connection working, I just need to turn it off with the rear (on/off) switch (which I can just about reach if Iím very careful!).

Does this shed any light on the potential cause of the problem?
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Old 22-12-2009, 08:41
Bob_Cat
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The critical question here is, as markt22m says, what make of TV is it?

Humax have worked with many of the major TV vendors to ensure the HDMI works in as many cases as possible; not my knowledge all the cases of incompatibility identified since the first major HDMI update (after the launch of Freesat) have been at the display end and not the STB end.

Knowing what TV might help correlate your experience with others, but the usual first course of action has been to call the TV manufacturer.
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Old 22-12-2009, 13:44
Johnny Blue
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The TV brand is Orion, although that it just a Tesco brand name badge, as the set is actually made by LG.

There is no problem with the set picking up HDMI: it works fine, it's just that after turning the Humax off (to standby), it won't re-start on HDMI unless I turn it off at the back...
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Old 22-12-2009, 15:12
olderscot
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The thing with HDMi is that it has HDCP copy protection active on it. So when the HDR comes out of standby it has to 'handshake' with the device it's connected to, to make sure it's allowed to send the signal to it.

See http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/hdmi1.htm

If the TV doesn't respond properly then the HDR will quite rightly refuse to send it the signal.

There are often other ways of 'resetting' the HDMI interface such as unplugging the HDMI interface or switching the TV off and on again.

Mike
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Old 22-12-2009, 17:02
Johnny Blue
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Ah, so may be I should turn on the TV before the Humax box, then it'll connect (handshake) properly? (Often I turn on the Humax box before the TV, as it takes so long to wake up... )

I'll give it a try!
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Old 22-12-2009, 17:54
Pootle
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The foxsat only locks out HDMI if it is set to 1080i output and the handshake thingy fails.

Make sure that menu->TV setup->HDCP default is set to disable or it will be picky about using HDMI output

Then when you have no picture, use the v-format button on the remote to drop the output down to 720 and see if you get the picture back.
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Old 23-12-2009, 09:07
Johnny Blue
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I've tried it a couple of times now, turning on the TV first, and then the Humax HDR, and it works fine: it must be, as was suggested, an HDMI 'handshake' issue.

The Humax HDR is indeed set to 1080i output, which presumably exacerbates the problem. (What exactly does 'menu->TV setup->HDCP default is set to disable' do?)

Many thanks for the replies (great forum here, BTW, I'm still waiting to get any kind of a response from the tech people at Humax!).
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Old 23-12-2009, 09:31
Bob_Cat
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The previous poster isn't quite correct:

Content on the HD channels is protected by signalling which requires the HDCP. Turning off the HDCP by default means that on channels with no content protection signalling (all SD channels) the HDCP need not be used. When tuning to an channel with content management signalling enabled the HDCP is required on. If HDCP is set off by default then the HDCP is re-negotiated when changing between "required" and "not required" channels. We default HDCP to "on" because it reduces the number of HDMI re-negotiations (re-negotiations cause long channel change times and more potential for handshake failure).

Because HDMI needs to renegotiate if the video format changes pressing the V-Format option causes the HDMI and thus HDCP to be renegotiated. Some people find that pressing V-Format until it reaches 1080i again fixes their handshake issues. Other people change their default video format to "Original" because the changing between BBC HD and other channels causes a re-negotiation as well.
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Old 23-12-2009, 12:51
Johnny Blue
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Jeez, I had no idea that HDMI was so complicated: I thought it was just another wire!

I'm happy enough that the work-around I've discovered (i.e., making sure the TV is on first, before waking up the Humax box) sorts out my problem! (Although this state of blissful ignorance is only as a result of 'new toy' syndrome: I dare say I'll be investigating all these intricacies and complexities before too long!)
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Old 23-12-2009, 19:55
hillel
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Content on the HD channels is protected by signalling which requires the HDCP. Turning off the HDCP by default means that on channels with no content protection signalling (all SD channels) the HDCP need not be used.
Could you have a little tech talk with Sky to explain this to them, please. I regularly, i.e. about every couple of weeks, get a HDCP error on BBC 1 SD. My TV screen goes blank on the HDMI input. When I view via scart I can see a message saying my TV is not HDCP enabled. I only ever get this on BBC and never on BBC HD. It comes and goes, may not happen for weeks, can happen every day. It happened on each and every F1 race this year!
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Old 24-12-2009, 14:31
hillel
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Happening again today on Sky with "Chronicles of Narnia" on BBC1. But... the Opera from Covent Garden on BBC HD is fine!

Ah, but... our trusty Humax Box is working fine for BBC 1, issue solved. (And, I can also RECORD BBC HD, which Sky, despite my exorbitant subscription fee, will not allow. )
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Old 01-01-2010, 14:29
adwozere
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I was thinking about getting a FOXSAT-HDR Freesat+ to replace my 9200t, but this needs a dish to work can I use my sky+ dish, as it has the twin cable that is needed?
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Old 01-01-2010, 14:42
grahamlthompson
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I was thinking about getting a FOXSAT-HDR Freesat+ to replace my 9200t, but this needs a dish to work can I use my sky+ dish, as it has the twin cable that is needed?
Yes you can. Same satellites and channels
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Old 01-01-2010, 16:14
rjay60
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Jeez, I had no idea that HDMI was so complicated: I thought it was just another wire!

I'm happy enough that the work-around I've discovered (i.e., making sure the TV is on first, before waking up the Humax box) sorts out my problem! (Although this state of blissful ignorance is only as a result of 'new toy' syndrome: I dare say I'll be investigating all these intricacies and complexities before too long!)
I think there are a few people on here who say they need to turn their TV on first. With mine, so long as the HDMI my Humax is plugged into was the selected input when I turned the TV off, it does not matter what I turn on first regardless to if the Humax is on BBC HD or a SD channel.
I think its just down to the make or model of TV you have, not a fault with the Humax. FYI I have a Samsung series 5 TV
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:37
Johnny Blue
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With my Orion (LG) 50" plasma (bought 2006) the set HAS to be on for the Humax to handshake properly. The other day I turned the TV off for a while, and left the Humax on: when I came back and turned the TV on again, same story, no picture. The only way to get the picture back was to turn the Humax box off (to standby), and then re-boot.
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:34
stanandjan
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Just a guess Johnny,,
My plasma 'Hitachi' 42" dates back to 2004 and is an old type computer ssssssscreen..
The picture is brilliant but it does not have HDMI of course..
So possibly the protection delay on the plasma is involved?..
I assume that they all have them??
Mine is about15 seconds to switch off when 'no signal'..
and is causing a minor Hiccup..as it affects mine in an opposite fashion to you.
In passing..
the recommendations from Graham..Les.. et al.. have nudged me to test that the RGB via the Scart...
produces to the screen limit re HiDefn..
No need for other cables thankfully and with Scarts costing a Quid!
In that ...on Non-Freesat over the Holidays..
I was watching and recording 'LUXE' in both HD and SD at the same time..
simply switching adjacent channels
The HD one was instantly recognizable as better at about 10 feet from the screen..
Visitors now say it's better than their new Full HD ones..when i play it back from the hard drive!
Perhaps the Plasma oldies have something going for them and it is economics that has caused them to disappear?
Would it be useful if i copied the SD and HD to a dvd [1HourEQ]..
to ascertain from screen shots the differences which are so apparent visually??..
e.g. Does anyone know the Bit-rate for Luxe relative to the mucch maligned BBC HD?
[I am putting in an other Input on that]
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Old 02-01-2010, 12:24
grahamlthompson
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Just a guess Johnny,,
My plasma 'Hitachi' 42" dates back to 2004 and is an old type computer ssssssscreen..
The picture is brilliant but it does not have HDMI of course..
So possibly the protection delay on the plasma is involved?..
I assume that they all have them??
Mine is about15 seconds to switch off when 'no signal'..
and is causing a minor Hiccup..as it affects mine in an opposite fashion to you.
In passing..
the recommendations from Graham..Les.. et al.. have nudged me to test that the RGB via the Scart...
produces to the screen limit re HiDefn..
No need for other cables thankfully and with Scarts costing a Quid!
In that ...on Non-Freesat over the Holidays..
I was watching and recording 'LUXE' in both HD and SD at the same time..
simply switching adjacent channels
The HD one was instantly recognizable as better at about 10 feet from the screen..
Visitors now say it's better than their new Full HD ones..when i play it back from the hard drive!
Perhaps the Plasma oldies have something going for them and it is economics that has caused them to disappear?
Would it be useful if i copied the SD and HD to a dvd [1HourEQ]..
to ascertain from screen shots the differences which are so apparent visually??..
e.g. Does anyone know the Bit-rate for Luxe relative to the mucch maligned BBC HD?
[I am putting in an other Input on that]
About 5480kbpps for Luxe and 9730kbbps for BBC HD

http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/sa..._bit_rates.php
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Old 02-01-2010, 12:40
Nick123
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The critical question here is, as markt22m says, what make of TV is it?

Humax have worked with many of the major TV vendors to ensure the HDMI works in as many cases as possible; not my knowledge all the cases of incompatibility identified since the first major HDMI update (after the launch of Freesat) have been at the display end and not the STB end.

Knowing what TV might help correlate your experience with others, but the usual first course of action has been to call the TV manufacturer.
Sorry Bob-Cat, but I can't help commenting on your definition of "incompatibility". The dictionaries say "unable to work together" or something like it; incompatibility does not imply that either party "A" or party "B" is to blame, so you can't have "an incompatibility .... at the display end and not the STB end".
If you can get the Humax Foxsat working with 95% of all TV models and the TV manufacturer in question here can get their TV working with 95% of satellite STB's, then I would say that you are both doing quite well.
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Old 02-01-2010, 12:46
grahamlthompson
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Sorry Bob-Cat, but I can't help commenting on your definition of "incompatibility". The dictionaries say "unable to work together" or something like it; incompatibility does not imply that either party "A" or party "B" is to blame, so you can't have "an incompatibility .... at the display end and not the STB end".
If you can get the Humax Foxsat working with 95% of all TV models and the TV manufacturer in question here can get their TV working with 95% of satellite STB's, then I would say that you are both doing quite well.
Kind of missed the point, Bob says that the Foxsat boxes comply fully with the hdmi/hdcp spec. All the TV's so far found that don't work properly do not fully comply. Many have firmware mods available to improve compatibility. It's somewhat equivalent to Freeview boxes that don't now work due to split nit and/or 8K transmission.
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Old 02-01-2010, 14:12
Nick123
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Kind of missed the point, Bob says that the Foxsat boxes comply fully with the hdmi/hdcp spec. All the TV's so far found that don't work properly do not fully comply. Many have firmware mods available to improve compatibility. It's somewhat equivalent to Freeview boxes that don't now work due to split nit and/or 8K transmission.
OK, thanks Graham, now I understand. In this case Bob Cat is doing himself & the Foxsat STB down a bit by claiming "incompatibility" issues - you're saying it's a "compliance" issue. What you & Bob are telling me is that some TV's are not fully compliant - so the fault in this case is with the TV's, I agree.
Sorry to nitpick on words, but over the years I've had it up to here with companies who blame each other on incompatibility grounds - not very nice when you have expensive electronic gadgets that don't work properly together and all the manufacturers do is shrug shoulders without attempting to solve the issues.
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