The best thing about that scene was all the woefully inaccurate speculation it caused.
Why was Jessica Stevenson...
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Originally Posted by TheWayItIs:
“Cobblers, pure cobblers.”
“Cobblers, pure cobblers.”
actually most cobblers also do a bit of key cutting too!
Originally Posted by Apollyon:
“I totally agree.
By going to see Reinette he would be crossing his own Timeline, which is bad.
Even if he did manage to see her inbetween visits from his earlier self it would cause more problems that it solved. If it was after the Doctor had told her he would take her to see the stars she would expect to leave with him, which she can't because we know she dies in France, and if it was before it would ruin the continuity with that episode because the Doc would have to explain "this is future me, I'm dying, well I'm not Dying, I'm going to be a different person, it's like dying you'll see me again but that is in my past and your future, oh never mind." it would be rediculous and would give more questions that it would answer and wouldn't give the tenth doc any form of closure, which is what he is looking for in his last moments as Doc10. Visiting her grave wouldn't do much in the way of closure either, intead reminding him of another person he failed.”
“I totally agree.
By going to see Reinette he would be crossing his own Timeline, which is bad.
Even if he did manage to see her inbetween visits from his earlier self it would cause more problems that it solved. If it was after the Doctor had told her he would take her to see the stars she would expect to leave with him, which she can't because we know she dies in France, and if it was before it would ruin the continuity with that episode because the Doc would have to explain "this is future me, I'm dying, well I'm not Dying, I'm going to be a different person, it's like dying you'll see me again but that is in my past and your future, oh never mind." it would be rediculous and would give more questions that it would answer and wouldn't give the tenth doc any form of closure, which is what he is looking for in his last moments as Doc10. Visiting her grave wouldn't do much in the way of closure either, intead reminding him of another person he failed.”
Why would he need to tell her anything? She'd just assume he'd turned up randomly again (before his last meeting with her, obviously- he knows she didn't see him between that moment and her death so can't go to that period), he could say hello and that would be that. Something along the lines of 'I'll be there when you need me, but have a good life while I'm not here'. She wouldn't know he's older than the other times she sees him. To be honest he wouldn't need to even speak to her- he didn't talk to most of the others, just walk by, wave and leave again. Of course it was probably just too impractical to do- in all likelihood the actress wasn't available and trying to fudge it with scenes from the episode probably wouldn't look right.
Quote:
“If the Doctor visiting Reinette would have been crossing his own timeline, wasn't his visiting Rose before she knew him the same?”
“If the Doctor visiting Reinette would have been crossing his own timeline, wasn't his visiting Rose before she knew him the same?”
Nope because it would have been before she first met the doctor, If his actions visiting her caused her not to meet the doctor then it would be a paradox. Although If the Doctor went back in time and wisked renette away after discovering she had died while at the same time faking her death it wouldnt have crossed his timeline as it wouldnt have changed the doctors past actions.
In the Family of Blood - the bad guy referred to Jessica Hynes' character as the Doctor's 'lover'. Obviously we never saw them making the beast with two backs - but it's not inconceivable they might've done it at some point (if they were quick). Which makes it at least theoretically possible (although not necessarily probable) that the Doctor could've got her pregnant. Perhaps he was saying goodbye to his own grand-daughter?
It was more moving than any other scene in The End of Time, other than the scene with the Doctor and Wilf in the cafe in part 1.
It may have been a bit pointless, but was nonetheless poignant and one of the better things about the episode.
It may have been a bit pointless, but was nonetheless poignant and one of the better things about the episode.
I really liked that scene, when she asked if he was happy, and he just kind of weakly smiled and his lip quivered you knew the answer was no. He'd lost Rose, seen the life he could have had as John Smith, robbed Donna of her better life, and now he was going off to 'die'.
So sad
So sad
Originally Posted by baldbilluk:
“Actually I DO NOT watch Dr Who as i find DT quite pretentious/anoying and too much in love with himself. but I have heard of the different companions, but I knew that Jessica stevenson (who i have never seen in a serious role, which as an actor must also be part of her talents!!!!) and she is such a good writer, no one can remember the name of the tv programme she wrote so I will give the "award winning" bit a miss.”
“Actually I DO NOT watch Dr Who as i find DT quite pretentious/anoying and too much in love with himself. but I have heard of the different companions, but I knew that Jessica stevenson (who i have never seen in a serious role, which as an actor must also be part of her talents!!!!) and she is such a good writer, no one can remember the name of the tv programme she wrote so I will give the "award winning" bit a miss.”
why does i bother you then who is in the finale? As you w
seem agitated by it.
best
Originally Posted by BaileyBigIdiot:
“You have a massive chip on your shoulder dont you, and if you have a problem with her going and rant about it some were else as this is a Doctor and Torchwood forum not which celeb annoys me, and judging by some peoples views on here the liked her and think she is a good actress as do I.”
“You have a massive chip on your shoulder dont you, and if you have a problem with her going and rant about it some were else as this is a Doctor and Torchwood forum not which celeb annoys me, and judging by some peoples views on here the liked her and think she is a good actress as do I.”
Thank you. If the OP had watched DW, they would see Jessica was great in HN/FoB.
Originally Posted by PR.:
“I really liked that scene, when she asked if he was happy, and he just kind of weakly smiled and his lip quivered you knew the answer was no. He'd lost Rose, seen the life he could have had as John Smith, robbed Donna of her better life, and now he was going off to 'die'.
So sad”
“I really liked that scene, when she asked if he was happy, and he just kind of weakly smiled and his lip quivered you knew the answer was no. He'd lost Rose, seen the life he could have had as John Smith, robbed Donna of her better life, and now he was going off to 'die'.
So sad
”
I agree, it was a very poignant scene.
Originally Posted by Bob Paisley:
“In the Family of Blood - the bad guy referred to Jessica Hynes' character as the Doctor's 'lover'. Obviously we never saw them making the beast with two backs - but it's not inconceivable they might've done it at some point (if they were quick). Which makes it at least theoretically possible (although not necessarily probable) that the Doctor could've got her pregnant. Perhaps he was saying goodbye to his own grand-daughter?”
“In the Family of Blood - the bad guy referred to Jessica Hynes' character as the Doctor's 'lover'. Obviously we never saw them making the beast with two backs - but it's not inconceivable they might've done it at some point (if they were quick). Which makes it at least theoretically possible (although not necessarily probable) that the Doctor could've got her pregnant. Perhaps he was saying goodbye to his own grand-daughter?”
I also thought it was trying to say that Verity was the Doctor's half-semi-wibbly-wobley-grandaughter
Originally Posted by PR.:
“I really liked that scene, when she asked if he was happy, and he just kind of weakly smiled and his lip quivered you knew the answer was no. He'd lost Rose, seen the life he could have had as John Smith, robbed Donna of her better life, and now he was going off to 'die'.
So sad”
“I really liked that scene, when she asked if he was happy, and he just kind of weakly smiled and his lip quivered you knew the answer was no. He'd lost Rose, seen the life he could have had as John Smith, robbed Donna of her better life, and now he was going off to 'die'.
So sad
”
I liked the scene, but, sorry to be a grouch, when he didn't reply to her question it really bugged me. If someone on the telly is asked a question and they choose to ignore it, it drives me insane! If I ask a question and it isn't answered I want to shout "I'm talking to you, you ignorant get! Do me the courtesy of answering me!"
Sorry, but it's the way I am! The Doctor did it a couple of times and it annoyed me. I'm sad, I know, but I can't help it.
Originally Posted by cuza:
“I liked the scene, but, sorry to be a grouch, when he didn't reply to her question it really bugged me...”
“I liked the scene, but, sorry to be a grouch, when he didn't reply to her question it really bugged me...”
But that look was his answer, and far more effective than him saying 'No'.
This is why RTD chose to use Nurse Redfern's granddaughter, not Reinette - John Smith/The Doctor chose to give up his potential life with Joan and ended up unhappy and causing much grief to others - the same didn't apply with Reinette.
Originally Posted by Shrike:
“But that look was his answer, and far more effective than him saying 'No'.
This is why RTD chose to use Nurse Redfern's granddaughter, not Reinette - John Smith/The Doctor chose to give up his potential life with Joan and ended up unhappy and causing much grief to others - the same didn't apply with Reinette.”
“But that look was his answer, and far more effective than him saying 'No'.
This is why RTD chose to use Nurse Redfern's granddaughter, not Reinette - John Smith/The Doctor chose to give up his potential life with Joan and ended up unhappy and causing much grief to others - the same didn't apply with Reinette.”
I disagree. From what I can gather there were several other, more apposite, reasons:
* Sophia Myles is now an established trans-Atlantic film star.
* Jessica Stevenson is much more available and cheap.
* Having a reunion with Reinette would have detracted from the subplot "ridiculous closure" thing with Rose, even though he fell in love with Reinette first.
* Because Rose is a real Mary Sue figure and RTD loves her he wanted her to be the final goodbye even though it is very arguable the character didnt warrant it at all.
Originally Posted by cuza:
“I liked the scene, but, sorry to be a grouch, when he didn't reply to her question it really bugged me. If someone on the telly is asked a question and they choose to ignore it, it drives me insane! If I ask a question and it isn't answered I want to shout "I'm talking to you, you ignorant get! Do me the courtesy of answering me!"”
“I liked the scene, but, sorry to be a grouch, when he didn't reply to her question it really bugged me. If someone on the telly is asked a question and they choose to ignore it, it drives me insane! If I ask a question and it isn't answered I want to shout "I'm talking to you, you ignorant get! Do me the courtesy of answering me!"
”
The point of the question is that the Doctor hasn't got an answer to whether or not he was happy 'at the end'. Or at least, having the question echoed back to him makes him have to consider his answer.
That's why the scene was there, and why it was Joan and not Reinette - Madame la Pompadour's story is well known, and the Doctor already visited her after her death and found out what happened to her. Joan's story was unknown; he had the 'dream' of a happy future, and he didn't get his - he hoped she got hers.
Originally Posted by johnnysaucepn:
“The point of the question is that the Doctor hasn't got an answer to whether or not he was happy 'at the end'. Or at least, having the question echoed back to him makes him have to consider his answer.
That's why the scene was there, and why it was Joan and not Reinette - Madame la Pompadour's story is well known, and the Doctor already visited her after her death and found out what happened to her. Joan's story was unknown; he had the 'dream' of a happy future, and he didn't get his - he hoped she got hers.”
“The point of the question is that the Doctor hasn't got an answer to whether or not he was happy 'at the end'. Or at least, having the question echoed back to him makes him have to consider his answer.
That's why the scene was there, and why it was Joan and not Reinette - Madame la Pompadour's story is well known, and the Doctor already visited her after her death and found out what happened to her. Joan's story was unknown; he had the 'dream' of a happy future, and he didn't get his - he hoped she got hers.”
If that is the criterion for choosing who to visit, then why did he go back and visit Rose? He knew how her story goes.
He visited Rose because, supposedly, he loved her. But he loved Reinette too, and first. And you know what they say about your first love...
Or maybe it's because Rose was the first character that we (the viewers) met in this incarnation of Dr. Who and the sequence was as much about us (the viewers) saying goodbye to characters that we're unlikely to see in the main show again. by visiting Rose one last time, it gives the viewers who still like the character a chance to say goodbye to her.
The whole sequence would mean little/nothing to casual viewers, but for people who have watched and become attached to these characters gives us a chance to day goodbye.
Verity Newman was there for an added emotional punch, as she relates to the character that John Smith (ie the Doctor) fell in love with and there remained a question mark over her future - more than other one-off characters, the Doctor potentially screwed up her life big style!
The whole sequence would mean little/nothing to casual viewers, but for people who have watched and become attached to these characters gives us a chance to day goodbye.
Verity Newman was there for an added emotional punch, as she relates to the character that John Smith (ie the Doctor) fell in love with and there remained a question mark over her future - more than other one-off characters, the Doctor potentially screwed up her life big style!
Originally Posted by KnowAll27:
“Or maybe it's because Rose was the first character that we (the viewers) met in this incarnation of Dr. Who and the sequence was as much about us (the viewers) saying goodbye to characters that we're unlikely to see in the main show again. by visiting Rose one last time, it gives the viewers who still like the character a chance to say goodbye to her.
The whole sequence would mean little/nothing to casual viewers, but for people who have watched and become attached to these characters gives us a chance to day goodbye.
Verity Newman was there for an added emotional punch, as she relates to the character that John Smith (ie the Doctor) fell in love with and there remained a question mark over her future - more than other one-off characters, the Doctor potentially screwed up her life big style!”
“Or maybe it's because Rose was the first character that we (the viewers) met in this incarnation of Dr. Who and the sequence was as much about us (the viewers) saying goodbye to characters that we're unlikely to see in the main show again. by visiting Rose one last time, it gives the viewers who still like the character a chance to say goodbye to her.
The whole sequence would mean little/nothing to casual viewers, but for people who have watched and become attached to these characters gives us a chance to day goodbye.
Verity Newman was there for an added emotional punch, as she relates to the character that John Smith (ie the Doctor) fell in love with and there remained a question mark over her future - more than other one-off characters, the Doctor potentially screwed up her life big style!”
Indeed. The Doctor saved Reinette and whilst he did have an intense emtional relationship with her it was for him only a short period. The Doctor's relationship with Joan lasted at least several weeks. And as you point out he wondered what became of her after basically turning her life upside down
The Doctor met Myles' character just a few times for a short period. He spent weeks with Hynes. He never had a chance with Myles, whereas he actually made a choice not to leave Hynes' character, meaning he'd have loads more regrets.
Plus, all his 'goodbyes' were more or less present day. It would have been jarring for him suddenly to take the episode into another time period.
Finally, I think RTD was putting in scenes for their emotional value. We're more likely to remember Hynes' character as she appeared more recently, and for more than one episode. Finally part 2, each of his goodbyes told us a little about the character he was saying goodbye to, showing us what they were up to now or whatever. Myles' character's story was already pretty much told, her episode ended with her death. By contrast, Hynes' scene told us a little about what happened to her granny. That said, I think it would have made more sense to show the granny rather than her, but that would have had the same problems that showing the Doctor meeting Myles would have had (as discussed above).
Plus, all his 'goodbyes' were more or less present day. It would have been jarring for him suddenly to take the episode into another time period.
Finally, I think RTD was putting in scenes for their emotional value. We're more likely to remember Hynes' character as she appeared more recently, and for more than one episode. Finally part 2, each of his goodbyes told us a little about the character he was saying goodbye to, showing us what they were up to now or whatever. Myles' character's story was already pretty much told, her episode ended with her death. By contrast, Hynes' scene told us a little about what happened to her granny. That said, I think it would have made more sense to show the granny rather than her, but that would have had the same problems that showing the Doctor meeting Myles would have had (as discussed above).
I also think the scenes was a goodbye to John Smith too. John Smith sacrificed himself so the Doctor could live. He didn't want to and resisted it, but he did it in the end. I feel that some part of the Doctor (the John Smith part) would feel sad that John Smith died and couldn't live his human life with a wife he loved and children. I thought it was a nice touch that the Doctor bought a copy of Journal of Impossible Things, which commemorated him.
Yes, I agree with this. The Doctor and Joan didn't part on the best of terms. When he asked her to join him in the TARDIS, she basically said the Doctor effectively killed the man she loved, her co-workers, boys from her school and people from her wider community, and he isn't even a shadow to John Smith, so why on earth would she be in his company. Before her smack down, it seemed up to that point that the Doctor hadn't realised the impact he had when he visited and how unhappy he had made her, and I think that resonated with him. It's easy to understand why she stuck in his mind, and while nothing could ease his guilt over the deaths, it's also easy to understand why the Doctor might have wanted reassurance that she found happiness again after his departure maybe more than others.
To be fair, Rose was there for other reasons too. Personally, I do think the Doctor did loved her, although YMMV on whether it's romantic love or platonic love, because I think the Doctor loved and cared for all his companions. And I think that's the key why she was there and not Reinette. Rose was a companion and they probably mean more to him than anyone.
1) the Doctor wants to see the sights and experience all the universes in time and space and the companions share this love with him and they keep him company while he travels. He's a lonely Time Lord and like most lonely people/aliens good company means a lot.
2) He had a long term relationship with Rose, Martha, Donna were long term and they go through a lot with the Doctor. I would say they almost become family to him, and that bond is arguably stronger than romantic love.
3) part of their job is to ground him and stop him from becoming Time Lord Victorious (and we see how well that turns out in WoM and with the Master). The Doctor doesn't pick companions willy nilly (otherwise I'm sure he would have taken Christina on her offer). Each had their own way of bringing his ego down, and I think the Doctor is thankful for it, which adds another dimension to why why mean so much to him.
Overall, I think Rose, Martha, Donna should have been there in that sequence, and to an extent Jack and Wilf. I think Sarah Jane, Luke and Verity was a happy bonus!
Originally Posted by KnowAll27:
“Verity Newman was there for an added emotional punch, as she relates to the character that John Smith (ie the Doctor) fell in love with and there remained a question mark over her future - more than other one-off characters, the Doctor potentially screwed up her life big style!”
“Verity Newman was there for an added emotional punch, as she relates to the character that John Smith (ie the Doctor) fell in love with and there remained a question mark over her future - more than other one-off characters, the Doctor potentially screwed up her life big style!”
Yes, I agree with this. The Doctor and Joan didn't part on the best of terms. When he asked her to join him in the TARDIS, she basically said the Doctor effectively killed the man she loved, her co-workers, boys from her school and people from her wider community, and he isn't even a shadow to John Smith, so why on earth would she be in his company. Before her smack down, it seemed up to that point that the Doctor hadn't realised the impact he had when he visited and how unhappy he had made her, and I think that resonated with him. It's easy to understand why she stuck in his mind, and while nothing could ease his guilt over the deaths, it's also easy to understand why the Doctor might have wanted reassurance that she found happiness again after his departure maybe more than others.
Originally Posted by poppycod:
“If that is the criterion for choosing who to visit, then why did he go back and visit Rose? He knew how her story goes.
He visited Rose because, supposedly, he loved her. But he loved Reinette too, and first. And you know what they say about your first love...”
“If that is the criterion for choosing who to visit, then why did he go back and visit Rose? He knew how her story goes.
He visited Rose because, supposedly, he loved her. But he loved Reinette too, and first. And you know what they say about your first love...
”
To be fair, Rose was there for other reasons too. Personally, I do think the Doctor did loved her, although YMMV on whether it's romantic love or platonic love, because I think the Doctor loved and cared for all his companions. And I think that's the key why she was there and not Reinette. Rose was a companion and they probably mean more to him than anyone.
1) the Doctor wants to see the sights and experience all the universes in time and space and the companions share this love with him and they keep him company while he travels. He's a lonely Time Lord and like most lonely people/aliens good company means a lot.
2) He had a long term relationship with Rose, Martha, Donna were long term and they go through a lot with the Doctor. I would say they almost become family to him, and that bond is arguably stronger than romantic love.
3) part of their job is to ground him and stop him from becoming Time Lord Victorious (and we see how well that turns out in WoM and with the Master). The Doctor doesn't pick companions willy nilly (otherwise I'm sure he would have taken Christina on her offer). Each had their own way of bringing his ego down, and I think the Doctor is thankful for it, which adds another dimension to why why mean so much to him.
Overall, I think Rose, Martha, Donna should have been there in that sequence, and to an extent Jack and Wilf. I think Sarah Jane, Luke and Verity was a happy bonus!
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