All this huge universe-shattering prophecy stuff is not really a welcome addition to the show though is it?

One of the great things about Dr Who was that at heart he was quite humble, he recognised that he was just a small, often insignificant person in a massive, expanding universe.

Too often recently the Doctor has been portrayed as messianic with the universe (and time "itself" ) revolving around him.

all this prophecy stuff is becoming stale, repetitive, and a cheap way to generate story arcs over the course of a season -- viz. the "he will knock four times" business.

Prophecy can, in the right hands, be a useful element in storytelling, but it takes a heck of a writer to make it really work and not just be a lazy substitute for proper development.

Fortunately for all, DW is now in the hands of a heck of a writer.

MY prediction is that Moffat will avoid prophecies, and if he does use them will do so with a pleasingly post-modern/ironic twist.

Depends how it's played...

IMHO, the four knocks prophecy, when its meaning was finally revealed, was a superb twist - much more subtle than I was expecting.

Other RTD portents (e.g. 'Bad Wolf', 'the bees are disappearing') haven't worked as well.


Well, this is a different argument, but one I'd actually agree with.

I prefer the Doctor as a bumbling, erratic professor guy who blunders his way into trouble. The Jesus-like parallels I find somewhat inappropriate.

Regards,

Cypher

I think RTD has had mixed success with his prophecies.

Some I didn't think worked very well at all (e.g. 'Bad Wolf'), but others 'the four knocks' and 'Doctor Donna' were actually quite subtle - indeed, I thought the 'he will knock four times' portent ultimately delivered a superb pay-off.

Regards,

Cypher

I know I'm in a minority here, but I didn't really like anything about the "four knocks" shenanigans, including the payoff, poignant as it was. I've written why in another thread:

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s....php?t=1192042

I have to admit that my antipathy is partly coloured by my prophecy-phobic tendencies!

Heh, fair enough...

Personally, I try and keep an open mind on each and every element they pile into the show, then judge it based on how successfully I thought they did it.

Regards,

Cypher

You can't beat a bit of prophecy for comicbook gravitas; the potential it offers for bad poetry is irresistible to many a hack writer.

my sentiments exactly. My predictions for the next prophecy:


"THE WHITE BRIDGE LEADS TO DANGER. LEADS TO DEATH."

"THE OCTAGON HAS NINE SIDES"

"HANDS MEET AT MIDNIGHT."

"THE OWLS ARE NOT WHAT THEY SEEM"

"BEWARE THE MOON, LADS. BEWARE THE MOON."

Well, as Arthur C Clarke said: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Well we've had prophecy in this show since The Myth Makers back in the 60's. We saw mysticism associated with the time lords since The Sisterhood of Karn back in Tom Bakers time.

And given this is a show about time travel prophecy fits in quite well since it could be explained as people tapping into the time vortex which is likely to drive them a bit mad as well.

I don't see the problem.

The problem is that in the past the Doctor (particullrly no. 3) would dismiss superatititions and attempt to reveal the science behind them. Eg the Daemons were not devils but aliens.

Now prophecies are being taken at face value with no explanations being given to the viewers. Belief in mysticism is bering encouraged rather than explained overtly.

As was 'The Devil' in 'The Satan Pit'...

And, in 'Army Of Ghosts' (for example), the Doctor instantly dismisses the suggestion that these apparitions are *actually* the dead paying a visit, and actively tries to get to the bottom of it all...

The soothsayers in 'The Fires Of Pompeii' were shown to be alien-possessed humans; and a common fear of the dark was put down to piranha-like microscopic life-forms.

There's still demonstrably an effort to provide rational explanations behind extraordinary occurrences.


I think the show is just presenting us with individuals who are sensitive to the flow of the time, mainly the Ood, which is nothing the show hasn't done before via stuff like the Tharils and the Timelords with the Matrix.

The entire events of 'Genesis Of The Daleks' only take place because the Timelords have *foreseen* a time where the Daleks will become the dominant race.

Was that prophecy explained?

No, cos' we accept that the Timelords, as part of their natural abilities *as aliens*, can do that kinda stuff.

You may not agree, and that's fair enough, but, for me at least, I don't see anything particularly jarring in a show about time travel if the Doctor bumps into folk from time to time who have knowledge or insight into future events, either because they've been there, or because their alien biology gives them that ability.

Regards,

Cypher

Nor do I. But to pass off that knowledge as "mysticism" or the "supernatural" as happened in the last story seems out of character with Dr Who.

Also your examples from earlier CE and CE episodes do prove that most superstition, paranormal and mystical stuff is usally explained away. Thanks for those.

Well no, not as aliens, as Time Lords. I don't think the Genesis stuff was a prophecy at all, it was the Time Lords observing the future as that's pretty much all they seem to do.

My understanding of prophecy is visions of the future, rather than actually travelling there. I didn't understand the logic of the over-acting Time Lord prophet. Time Lords exist in relative time, so whilst that can observe the whole of history for everyone else they can't do so for themselves. For a scientific race to depend on the supernatural doesn't seem right to me.

Well, there was an explanation given (of sorts) - the already-telepathic Ood said that they had gained the ability to see through time (thus accelerating their development) as 'time was bleeding', a reference to the Timelords trying to escape from their timelock bubble.

Yeah, not that meaningful, but certainly no more than wiring up the minds of dead Timelords to a computer would create a predictive tool in the shape of the Matrix.

You just kinda roll with it...

Regards,

Cypher

It's all wibbly-wobbly prophecy-wophecy

You might be right, but I think the specific use of the word 'foresee' was indicative of some kind of prophetic element. And, if it actually wasn't one, he certainly presented it as one.

The next time the Timelords appeared, the Matrix was revealed as their prophetic tool.

Regards,

Cypher

PMSL

Regards,

Cypher

It's been ages since I saw Deadly Assassin, so I might be wrong but wasn't the Matrix a tool for viewing timelines rather than their own?

Though, as always, the series seems to make things up as it goes along with a reckless regard for it's own rules.

Off the top of my head, wasn't the Matrix a repository for all Time Lord knowledge and experiences? During the Trial of a Time Lord the Matrix was used to "view" events from the Doctor's life. When it showed events he disagreed happened he claimed the Matrix had been tampered with

It had a number of uses, but I think the main one was to serve as a repository of knowledge. But in 'The Deadly Assassin', Engin specifically states that it's also used to predict the future.


- old habits die hard, I guess...

Regards,

Cypher