I know there have been various guesses as to who the 'Weeping Time Lord (female)' is. For the record, I'm going with the Doctor's mother, BUT, who was the other 'Weeping Time Lord (male)'? He stood on the opposite side to Claire Bloom and kept his face covered throughout.

You know who it looked like to me? Matt Smith . It was the long slim fingers and the floppy brown hair. It certainly bore a resemblance to him.

So the only two Time Lords who voted against the breaking of the Time Lock and the return of Gallifrey, etc, etc were the Doctor's Mum AND the Doctor himself .

Does any of this make sense. It makes sense in my head but now my head hurts.

*having a Donna moment and need to lie down*

How could it have been Matt Smith when he didn't exist at that point? The Time Lords came from a point in time where the Time War was in full swing (well, towards the end) they were desperate for a way out and it was locked so it couldn't have been Matt Smith (somebody correct me if I'm wrong)

I think the woman was Donna Noble. I've no idea who the man could be but I do agree he holds some significance to future plots.

the woman was Susan Foreman. The man was obviously her brother George (post-regeneration.)

Absolutely - which is why my head hurts BUT what's also preying on my mind is what the Doctor said to Wilf about the only thing which could come out of the time lock was something which was already there. Now the Doctor would already be there? As was the Master which was how the Time Lords planted that drum beat in his head.

Oh I don't know what I'm on about . It does make a sort of sense in my head but trying to write it down it all goes a bit wrong .

*needs a longer lie down*

The only thing that was already there was the drums beating in The Master's head, a link to the past. I can only assume it was planted as an "insurance policy" at the time The Master looked into the Votrex as a child by The Time Lords, they knew he had a psychotic side and would use it in years to come to help them escape.

Thats my interpretation anyway (I've never seen any of the "old" Who episodes, just been watching since 2005). I'm willing to be educated, though!

At this point they weren't actually anybody.

If they are ever given an identity it will be up to a future writer, who won't be bound by whatever RTD may have been thinking when he put them there.

Even if Russell announces "it was the Doctor's parents," Steven is quite free to write a script where they turn out to be Susan Foreman and Luke Smith.

the "drumming" had no connection to anything in "classic" Who. The Master was in it numerous times and never said anything about any drumming. I was going to suggest that the Jacobi>Simm regeneration somehow "jolted" it into the forefront of his mind, but Simm's dialogue indicates that it has ALWAYS plagued The Master. A bit odd that none of his previous incarnations ever seemed to be troubled by it - if anything, Messrs Delgado and Ainley were super-suave sorts who (destructively) sailed through the Universe sans care or qualm!

I think both of them are whoever future writers using the characters decide they are and it is still up for grabs (unless it is resolved by storylines already decided for the next series).

I think with 'The Woman' they can't really draw upon characters from before the RTD era and neither will making her a completely new character really wash. She is really going to have to be the Doctor's mother or daughter to avoid cheating a substantial part of the millions of viewers. It really can't be too convoluted.

With the other one the writers can indulge themselves, they just need a credible reason for the way he voted.

Can't they just be two people, with no family connection to the Doctor, who think that destroying every other creature in the universe is a bad idea?

Dalek Caan could figure that out, and he wasn't the Doctor's cousin or anything like that.

They can be connected to him, but they don't have to be.

The gofer timelord did mumble something this but I didn't entirely catch what he said. I thought the idea was that the drumming was a signal that originated with the timelords in their 'present' (as we were viewing it). They sent it back in time to implant it in the Master as he looked into the vortex as a child. So there was a link between the timelords in their timelock and the Master wherever he was outside that could exploited to break out of the timelock.

However I am rather assuming I missed the point somewhat as it would mean that in order to get a signal out of the timelock they sent a signal out of the timelock...

I think they sent it at some time during the Time war prior to the lock.

But it's really pointless for us to try to discuss it logically - there's no logic involved in time travel and time locks.

I reckon it was the Doctor's mother and the Master's father (as he was mentioned in the episode before- why mention him if he doesn't feature?). Besides, who else would object to the young Master and Doctor being used then their own parents?

I agree on the first - when Wilf asked who she was, Doc 10 very pointedly looked at Wilf's Grand-daughter. and she did say to wilf that she'd been lost a long time ago, which could refer to her being left on Earth and the Doc never going back for her.

I wonder if they were put in at SM's request - did anyone else notice the line - "the weeping angels of old". It sounded like a real hint that Rassilon used to turn his enemies into weeping angels, and since they're coming back in S5 (not a spoiler following the recent trailer) maybe SM wanted a bit of back story establishing.

I presumed they were the Doctors' Mother and Father although the Master's father is equally credible.

I think S5 is going to be a lot about family, with the whole River Song storyline.
We already know the Doctor had children and a wife from The Doctor's Daughter episode.
It also could have been protrayed that Verity Newman (the woman at the book signing) was his grandaughter.

Could the woman have been Romana?

I know she went off into e-space, but what's to say she didn't get back somehow when the time war was in full swing??

RTD has previously stated that she did just that, and was president of Gallifrey at the start of the Time War.

Did Rassilon grill them?

Well...clearly the characters' identities were left for the viewers'/future writers' own interpretation, but I personally took it to be the Doctor's parents (though as someone said above me, the Master's father is credible to me).

Regarding another poster's question about the drums; somewhere in the episode the President had an aide come to him to tell him that the 'drums' had retroactively been put into the Master's mind when he was looking into the Temporal Schism. They had heard rumours about the drumming, and that it had started at the Schism, so they deliberately put them there in order to act as the signal.

Or something.

Cheers,

docmorrison

Here's a quote from Anton Chekhov: "Never hang a gun on the wall in the first act if you don't intend to have it go off in the third."

If they weren't important characters, they wouldn't have been in the script; the Time Lords would have voted unanimously.

But isn't it entirely possible that the whole point of their existence is to show that the Time Lords weren't acting unanimously - that they were/are still redeemable? After all, the female dissenter, whoever she may be, didn't just disagree, she actively acted against Rassilon in passing instructions to Wilf - although it's not clear how useful that information actually was.

Like the Doc said, the Time Lords changed; that could just be the leadership of Rassilon alone, he could be overthrowable.

But the gun clearly didn't go off in the third. RTD has stated directly that it's a mystery. He may have an idea in his mind (although he didn't seem too keen on the Doctor's mother idea in the commentary), but he didn't choose to reveal it. That sets their status to unknown. Full stop.

A future writer (who clearly won't be RTD) can make those characters anyone he or she wants, but at the moment they're no one.

It's like the long mystery of who picked up the Master's key. People speculated Donna, Rose, Lucy Saxon and Harriet Jones, but we eventually saw who it was. And if RTD hadn't brought the Master back, chances are high that if and when Moffat did it, it would be someone else entirely in a different story.

I was discussing the actions of the female Time Lord with partner last night. By appearing to Wilf and telling him to "take up arms" (or words to that effect) she starts the final chain of events. After seeing her, Wilf takes out his gun, convinces the Doctor to take it and then when the Doctor sees her uncover her face he shoots the diamond, thereby sending the Time Lords back to the final day of the time war and ultimately back into the Time Lock. The way I interpreted it was that this Time lady knew that Gallifrey had to fall to save the universe and helped manipulate Wilf and the Doctor to make sure these events came to pass

Plus her first visit to Wilf in the church makes him actively seek out the Doctor
Last edited by DavidG_UK : 04-01-2010 at 17:39

Matt Smith played the man, stand in. Budget costs.

If you look at the top of the man's head he seems to be going bald. I hope for Matt's sake it's not him!

Ahh, that answers it then.


It was the Meddling Monk.