DS Forums

 
 

Manchester - Local Freeview Multiplex - Information Thread


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 23-10-2012, 12:24
chrisy
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Beds (Sandy Heath TX)
Posts: 8,852
Surely the PSB Local TV muxes will have capacity that can house these currently-Manchester-only channels?
Only enough for two commercial channels plus the local service.
chrisy is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old 23-11-2012, 23:50
Greebo
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,256
So someone's been tinkering with the Manchester mux today...

At approx 4:30pm PIDs 2316/7 were replaced by 2828/9 -
Code:
28,29d19
< PID found: 2316 (0x090c)  [PS/PES: ITU-T Rec. H.262 | ISO/IEC 13818-2 or ISO/IEC 11172-2 video stream]
< PID found: 2317 (0x090d)  [PS/PES: ISO/IEC 13818-3 or ISO/IEC 11172-3 audio stream]
33a24,25
> PID found: 2828 (0x0b0c)  [PS/PES: ITU-T Rec. H.262 | ISO/IEC 13818-2 or ISO/IEC 11172-2 video stream]
> PID found: 2829 (0x0b0d)  [PS/PES: ISO/IEC 13818-3 or ISO/IEC 11172-3 audio stream]
(for those of you who don't recognise this "diff" output, lines starting < are things that have gone missing, and lines starting > are new things that have appeared)

By 5pm that had been put back how it was, and now PIDs 2682/3 were replaced by 3578/9 - and this has been the ongoing change still visible right now -
Code:
< PID found: 2682 (0x0a7a)  [PS/PES: ITU-T Rec. H.262 | ISO/IEC 13818-2 or ISO/IEC 11172-2 video stream]
< PID found: 2683 (0x0a7b)  [PS/PES: ISO/IEC 13818-3 or ISO/IEC 11172-3 audio stream]
---
> PID found: 3578 (0x0dfa)  [PS/PES: ITU-T Rec. H.262 | ISO/IEC 13818-2 or ISO/IEC 11172-2 video stream]
> PID found: 3579 (0x0dfb)  [PS/PES: ISO/IEC 13818-3 or ISO/IEC 11172-3 audio stream]
I suspect there's no changes to the channels that are visible to the public else someone else would have said something by now. I'm not in the region at the moment to be able to check easily. Can anyone see if anything has noticably changed? Assuming nothing has changed, why would they mess with the PID numbers?
Greebo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2012, 00:07
kjhskj75
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 749
No visible changes. Same channels - same crappy reception.
kjhskj75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2012, 11:38
Greebo
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,256

LCN57 has appeared in the LCN & SDT tables on all muxes from Winter Hill at 11am this morning. The service is named "HIGH STREET TV" - there are as no video or audio PIDs yet so the channel isn't running.
Greebo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2012, 14:27
Greebo
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,256
Update - video and audio started at about 13:00 - so "HIGH STREET TV" is now up and running on the Manchester mux.
Greebo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2012, 18:21
chrisy
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Beds (Sandy Heath TX)
Posts: 8,852
Is that - as the name suggests - a shopping channel?

edit I guess it's this, a JML type channel?
chrisy is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2012, 19:44
Martyn1
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 518
Surely the Manchester mux is now full, with 6 full time channels??? Wheres this 'local' channel gonna fit in on the mux....or will one of these 6 current channels have to go to make way for 'Local TV'?
Martyn1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2012, 19:46
Greebo
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,256
Is that - as the name suggests - a shopping channel? edit I guess it's this, a JML type channel?
That seems to be it. The logos match. Video is 4:3 and seems to be a quickly repeating loop of adverts originating from the USA overlayed with UK+IRL graphics.
Greebo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2012, 19:48
a516
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: East Midlands
Posts: 5,204
Surely the Manchester mux is now full, with 6 full time channels??? Wheres this 'local' channel gonna fit in on the mux....or will one of these 6 current channels have to go to make way for 'Local TV'?
The Manchester Television Network multiplex is not to be confused with the new local TV multiplex that will launch with 3 services - the local channel plus two other channels - sometime next year (or early 2014) depending on how the award of the local TV multiplex operator's licence develops. (Roll out speed will depend partly on the winner of the multiplex licence and is subject to the issue of state aid funding being sorted out.)
a516 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2012, 15:52
Greebo
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,256

I just noticed that High Street TV is flagged as "scrambled" and "not running" in the SDT:

Service_id: 30081 (0x7581) [= --> refers to PMT program_number]
reserved_1: 63 (0x3f)
EIT_schedule_flag: 0 (0x00)
EIT_present_following_flag: 0 (0x00)
Running_status: 1 (0x01) [= not running]
Free_CA_mode: 1 (0x01) [= streams [partially] CA controlled]
Descriptors_loop_length: 19 (0x0013)

DVB-DescriptorTag: 72 (0x48) [= service_descriptor]
descriptor_length: 17 (0x11)
service_type: 1 (0x01) [= digital television service]
service_provider_name_length: 0 (0x00)
service_provider_name: ""
service_name_length: 14 (0x0e)
Service_name: "HIGH STREET TV" -- Charset: Latin alphabet
Compare that with Capital TV which looks like other services:

Service_id: 30017 (0x7541) [= --> refers to PMT program_number]
reserved_1: 63 (0x3f)
EIT_schedule_flag: 0 (0x00)
EIT_present_following_flag: 0 (0x00)
Running_status: 4 (0x04) [= running]
Free_CA_mode: 0 (0x00) [= unscrambled]
Descriptors_loop_length: 15 (0x000f)

DVB-DescriptorTag: 72 (0x48) [= service_descriptor]
descriptor_length: 13 (0x0d)
service_type: 1 (0x01) [= digital television service]
service_provider_name_length: 0 (0x00)
service_provider_name: ""
service_name_length: 10 (0x0a)
Service_name: "CAPITAL TV" -- Charset: Latin alphabet
Waves at the Canis Media folks - you might want to fix this if it isn't deliberate...
Greebo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2012, 19:28
marria01
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Manchester
Posts: 348
The BBC/Atos/DMOL manages the contents of the SDT, maybe you need to email them?

It's happened before when GMG owned the mux, think someone in London needs to read the instructions that came with the CSI.
marria01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2012, 19:38
Greebo
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,256
The BBC/Atos/DMOL manages the contents of the SDT, maybe you need to email them?

It's happened before when GMG owned the mux, think someone in London needs to read the instructions that came with the CSI.
Yes- you spotted it before in post #92 of this very thread - March 2011 affecting the then newly launched movies4men. T'is all a bit deja-vu! ( http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...1197918&page=4 )

I've heard via another source that DMOL are aware and are fixing it. I've added another quick perl script that should detect the change and email me when it changes.
Greebo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2012, 10:48
Greebo
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,256
They fixed it around 9:20am - now showing as running and unscrambled - same as the other 5 services on the mux.
Greebo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2012, 21:02
Greebo
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,256
There was another reshuffle of video and audio PIDs today around 5:30pm. Wondering why they'd done that, I had a look at the bandwidth stats- and they've had a change around...

Code:
Monday @ 22:16

PID  Mbps  content
---- ----  -----------
1fff 2.62  null packets
090f 2.59  mov4men+1
0909 2.60  movies4men
0904 2.51  ARGOS TV 24/7
090c 2.51  SONY SAB
1930 1.64  HIGH STREET TV
0dfa 1.49  CAPITAL TV
0012 1.37  EIT


Wednesday @ 18:29

PID  Mbps  content
---- ----  -----------
0d30 3.00  HIGH STREET TV
090f 2.62  mov4men+1
0909 2.64  movies4men
0dfa 2.50  CAPITAL TV
110c 2.00  SONY SAB
1904 2.01  ARGOS TV 24/7
0012 1.36  EIT
1fff 1.14  null packets
So HIGH STREET TV has had a significant boost to its video bandwidth. SONY SAB has lost 0.5 Mbps. CAPITAL TV has also had a bit of a boost. These are all video PIDs apart from EIT and null packets.
Greebo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2012, 01:50
marria01
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Manchester
Posts: 348
I think they've just moved from VBR to CBR. I've always seen the bit rates fluctuate on most of the services until today. Now they seem to be pretty much fixed.

As a result, I question the accuracy of those original figures, unless they've been averaged over a long period of time.
marria01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2012, 09:44
Greebo
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,256
I think they've just moved from VBR to CBR. I've always seen the bit rates fluctuate on most of the services until today. Now they seem to be pretty much fixed.

As a result, I question the accuracy of those original figures, unless they've been averaged over a long period of time.
It depends what you mean by "they". If you mean Capital and Highstreet then I agree. I think that the previous 4 channels were running CBR already - but the latest two had been initially added to the mux as VBR.

The above stats were both taken by running a file containing a 5 minute transport stream dump through TSReader Lite - though I can also get snapshot values with dvbsnoop -s bandwidth on the live data which pretty well agreed with the 5 minute averages.

Having looked again just now 09:35 - it's been tweaked again. High Street now 2.0 Mbps (down by 1.0), Sony 2.5 Mbps (up by 0.5), null packets 1.6Mbps (up by 0.5).

I wonder why they feel the need to have the EIT running so high - it's more than twice the data rate that is used on e.g. BBCA.
Greebo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2012, 09:48
DragonQ
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 4,751
All those null packets, all that wasted bandwidth...

Also, using CBR in 2012 = fail.
DragonQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2012, 10:26
Greebo
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,256
All those null packets, all that wasted bandwidth... Also, using CBR in 2012 = fail.
I think "fail" is a little harsh- they may have commercial reasons for running that way- you'd think that the slots would have been sold with the bitrates specified. It's not as simple as one broadcaster being able to statmux across a group of its own channels.

Further on the EIT- if that was halved, it would release something like 850Kbps, add that to null packets (which are no longer VBR headroom) and you have 2.4Mbps - so about one more channel's worth of free space at the rates they are using.
Greebo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2012, 13:25
AngusMast
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,753
From the figures you've given Greebo, I would say all channels are statmuxing between 2 and 3Mb now.

Best way to know would be to do 2 short samples and a long sample
AngusMast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2013, 20:18
steve.ie
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 16
51 movies4men
52 mov4men+1
53 SONY SAB
54 ARGOS TV 24/7
56 CAPITAL TV

All these have disappeared for me Anyone else?
steve.ie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2013, 20:27
Greebo
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,256
51 movies4men
52 mov4men+1
53 SONY SAB
54 ARGOS TV 24/7
56 CAPITAL TV

All these have disappeared for me Anyone else?
All still visible here ok.
Greebo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2013, 20:29
horwich
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Hindley Green
Posts: 383
51 movies4men
52 mov4men+1
53 SONY SAB
54 ARGOS TV 24/7
56 CAPITAL TV

All these have disappeared for me Anyone else?
Still here for me.
horwich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2013, 20:38
steve.ie
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 16
Thanks, will try a rescan
steve.ie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2013, 21:45
MeMeMeI
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 943

Where in Manchester can receive these channels?

I have family who are on Winter hill mast and in M9 but no matter how often you rescan their is no movies4men or movies 4men + 1


MeMeMeI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2013, 22:08
Greebo
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,256
Where in Manchester can receive these channels?
I have family who are on Winter Hill mast and in M9 but no matter how often you rescan their is no movies4men or movies 4men + 1
M9 is certainly within the Ofcom predicted pattern - see page 27 of http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/bin...tice524/im.pdf - however the transmission setup appears to have been done to minimum budget just to get something on air at all - so even with a quality aerial and a sensitive receiver you still may struggle.

Given that Canis Media (who now run the current Manchester mux) are behind Comux who won the infrastructure contract for the more national rollout of local tv muxes, I wonder if they'll be in a position to get this mux moved up the WH mast when the new Manchester/Liverpool/Preston petals are setup?
Greebo is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:40.