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What right has Emma Bunton to judge an ice skating competition? |
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#26 |
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Like she's said herself on a number of occasions, she's not going into the show to criticise the ice skating, she's looking on the performance elements and how well they connect with the audience - after all it is the audience who are keeping them in the competition. I thought I'd be defending Emma in this thread, since (1) she did a pretty good job, and (2) no one has given even a single argument that she doesn't have a right to do it. ... But the arguments people are making in her favour make her part of the anti-skating, 'entertainment show' attack that, combined with Coleen Nolan, did so much damange last year.
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#27 |
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The audience can make its own views known by voting. There's no need for a judge to play audience.
I thought I'd be defending Emma in this thread, since (1) she did a pretty good job, and (2) no one has given even a single argument that she doesn't have a right to do it. ... But the arguments people are making in her favour make her part of the anti-skating, 'entertainment show' attack that, combined with Coleen Nolan, did so much damange last year. ![]() In the case of DoI though, I believe that skating is just so difficult to master that the celebs have no choice but to focus very much on performance. We are unlikely to find any celeb who gets good enough at the pure skating to make it good to watch, so in this case I think it's essential to entertain with other aspects of the performance. As such I think Emma is more than qualified to comment on that....she has a lot of performance experience, has experienced the "performing in front of judges" element and is qualified to comment on the musicality elements of the celebs performances. As to why she is needed rather than just leaving it to the TV audience, she is seeing it live, she doesn't experience the change of perception which camera angles can give and so as a viewer who does not have the benefit of seeing things live I am interested to hear what she has to say. |
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#28 |
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As much right as Ruthie Henshall did.
She comes across much more engaged and interested in the whole thing than Henshall ever was, so she's ahead on brownie points there. |
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#29 |
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On the Strictly forums I was very much on the side of "dancing before comedy/entertainment" side of the fence so I'd expect to be agreeing with you. I accept to a point what you're saying here and agree that it's important the celebs work to improve their skating and also feel their skills should be very relevant to how highly they score and who wins.
In the case of DoI though, I believe that skating is just so difficult to master that the celebs have no choice but to focus very much on performance. We are unlikely to find any celeb who gets good enough at the pure skating to make it good to watch, so in this case I think it's essential to entertain with other aspects of the performance. ... I don't think skating is that hard, and they get something like six weeks training before the show starts. ![]() However, I agree that impressive spins, jumps, etc are difficult, so that she show can't rely on celebs doing them. That's one reason there are so many lifts. The show's picked lifts as the way to make the routines more impressive and exciting. I do not agree that the difficulty of more advanced skating moves means the entertainment has to come from things that are only tangentially connected to skating such as making faces or "acting" in exaggerated ways. Too often, the "it's entertainment" line makes it sound like skating is almost irrelevant and the celebs may as well come out and do stand-up comedy routines. |
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#30 |
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I don't think skating is that hard, and they get something like six weeks training before the show starts.
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#31 |
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That depends what you mean by 'skating' though doesn't it? Just standing up and skating circles round a rink isn't that difficult but learning to use the edges and do turns and steps is much more so, which is why some of them don't seem to get much beyond basic crossovers.
Some celebs look like they would have difficulty just skating about on the rink: skating forwards, backwards, turning in both directions -- able to go where they want to on the ice, without trembling like they were going to fall at any moment. I don't think it's all that difficult to get there after 6 weeks, so I have to wonder how they've been spending that time. Some even look like they'd struggle just to skate around the rink in one direction with no more turning than that requires. |
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#32 |
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I said that the impressive spins., jumps etc were difficult. Is that not enough? Ok, maybe not.
Some celebs look like they would have difficulty just skating about on the rink: skating forwards, backwards, turning in both directions -- able to go where they want to on the ice, without trembling like they were going to fall at any moment. I don't think it's all that difficult to get there after 6 weeks, so I have to wonder how they've been spending that time. Some even look like they'd struggle just to skate around the rink in one direction with no more turning than that requires. Some people have skated for years and still can't do basic stroking very well as it's not that easy to get really good knee bend and extensions and it is scary. In general the older you are the more of the wrong muscle memory you have to overcome before skating seems at all natural. Have you tried it yourself Veri? How long did it take you? Perhaps you are a natural. In general dancers, gymnasts and sports people tend to learn quicker because they have developed more body awareness and balance. A degree of fearlessness is also helpful which is why I think men tend to learn quicker as they are generally more wiling to throw themselves in to things without worrying about the consequences. You have to add in the extra fear factor of the live shows too. Believe me when you go out in front of an audience and judges it is very different to doing your routine in practice session - your legs do go to jelly and it does make it much more difficult to do things. To get back on topic I thought Emma was quite good as a judge and was quite correct that from the dance/performance point of view Sinitta even in the skate off was ahead of Sharron. |
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#33 |
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I think she has at least as much right as Jason or Ruthie does. Im sorry, but I have to agree with the others who said this, but if you add a comma, its pretty clear what the show is - Dancing, on ice. In an ideal world the five judges would have a background in ice dancing, but Emma comments on the dance and performance element, and actually did a fine job last week.
And also, I think comments to Alesha are unwarranted, because Strictly has different dances that all have certain rules and regulations that Alesha generally speaking has a poor knowledge of. Unless im mistaken, the celebs on DOI can generally do whatever they like, with the moves chosen by Torvill and Dean, so Emma can actually comment on pure dancing instead of specilized dancing. I thought she did an excellent job on Sunday - she made good comments, and did a good job of giving a negative comment in a constructive way. |
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#34 |
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well as far as im concerned she won me over on sunday night and i thought that she was overall a good judge
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#35 |
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There are problems with all combinations. Ruthie was qualified to point out that people couldn't act very well - given her status, even the actors - but people didn't like her doing that. Alesha was a very good dancer but its doubtful if she was qualified to judge better dancers . Emma isn't that qualified at all but she's unlikely to comment on what she doesn't know enough about and she can say more general things without having Ruthie's status or Alesha's lack of knowledge.
Ruthie brought nothing to the table (I'm not quite sure what you're talking about when you mention her "status). It isn't as if Emma is replacing someone who had anything to add. Given that she doesn't appear as biased as Ruthie so far it's already an advantage. |
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#36 |
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I think she has at least as much right as Jason or Ruthie does. Im sorry, but I have to agree with the others who said this, but if you add a comma, its pretty clear what the show is - Dancing, on ice.
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In an ideal world the five judges would have a background in ice dancing, but Emma comments on the dance and performance element, and actually did a fine job last week. Hmm. Do any of the judges have a background in ice dancing, as opposed to figure skating. At this point, I don't remember. And also, I think comments to Alesha are unwarranted, because Strictly has different dances that all have certain rules and regulations that Alesha generally speaking has a poor knowledge of. Unless im mistaken, the celebs on DOI can generally do whatever they like, with the moves chosen by Torvill and Dean, so Emma can actually comment on pure dancing instead of specilized dancing. I thought she did an excellent job on Sunday - she made good comments, and did a good job of giving a negative comment in a constructive way. ![]() But I think it's ok, and can even be good, to have judges with different backgrounds. Not if it were a strictly ice dancing competition, but since it isn't. And I agree that Emma did a good job. |
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#37 |
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Well I do know people who have tried to learn to skate for years and still can't turn very well. And there is a huge difference between being 'able to turn' and being 'able to turn properly using the edge and being able to hold the edge afterward' which takes a lot of practice if you've never skated before.
As I've mentioned before, in countries with more ice, a wide range of people, of different ages and athletic abilities, learn how to skate. Sure, most of them don't learn to so fancy jumps and spins, but they can skate around competently on their own, and most of them get to that point without any formal training. I'm inclined to think that any celeb who can't get near to that level after their 6 weeks of training should be dropped from the show. I think it would be rare for that to happen, but I think it would change the training priorities in a good way. Quote:
Some people have skated for years and still can't do basic stroking very well as it's not that easy to get really good knee bend and extensions and it is scary. In general the older you are the more of the wrong muscle memory you have to overcome before skating seems at all natural. Have you tried it yourself Veri? How long did it take you? Perhaps you are a natural.
I learned to skate as a child and can no longer remember how long it took or even how old I was when I first learned.Quote:
In general dancers, gymnasts and sports people tend to learn quicker because they have developed more body awareness and balance. I think that in DOI, the men have to learn to skate -- at least aim for that -- while the women can get away with lesser skating skills for a lot longer. I am normally very sceptical of the idea that "it's harder for the men", and the woman's role in lifts does require some skill, but there's no denying that the DOI women can spend most of their routines either holding onto, or being held up by, their partner.A degree of fearlessness is also helpful which is why I think men tend to learn quicker as they are generally more wiling to throw themselves in to things without worrying about the consequences. So I would like to see some change in the show that meant the women would spend more of their time on skating and less on lifts. IMO, the trainers and choreographers should already be doing that, because they know the judges want to see some skating skills, but for some reason they still haven't done it. Quote:
You have to add in the extra fear factor of the live shows too. Believe me when you go out in front of an audience and judges it is very different to doing your routine in practice session - your legs do go to jelly and it does make it much more difficult to do things. What do you think of the other judges all picking Sharon? Were they just seizing on the mistake / failed lift in Sinitta's routine, or was there actually a good case for saving Sharon?
To get back on topic I thought Emma was quite good as a judge and was quite correct that from the dance/performance point of view Sinitta even in the skate off was ahead of Sharron. |
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#38 |
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I just meant what I said, that they're "able to go where they want to on the ice, without trembling like they were going to fall at any moment" and without being only able to skate forwards, for example, or only able to turn in one direction. Not that they get all of the fine technical details right or be able to do it at high speed.
As I've mentioned before, in countries with more ice, a wide range of people, of different ages and athletic abilities, learn how to skate. Sure, most of them don't learn to so fancy jumps and spins, but they can skate around competently on their own, and most of them get to that point without any formal training. I'm inclined to think that any celeb who can't get near to that level after their 6 weeks of training should be dropped from the show. I think it would be rare for that to happen, but I think it would change the training priorities in a good way. I learned to skate as a child and can no longer remember how long it took or even how old I was when I first learned. As an adult you have many more problems. The fear factor for one which should not be underestimated. You also have to unlearn a lot of muscle memory and like most physical things it is simply harder to learn them the older you are. You imagine trying to learn gymnastics or ballet as an adult if you have never done it before. Ice skating is similarly difficult. People who have skated a bit as children, even if just basic skating round a rink have a discernable ease on the ice which it takes adult learners a long time to emulate if ever. Plus the celebs are really having to learn things way above their actual competence levels to do the routines (which is why most can't do them away from the professionals) Quote:
I think that in DOI, the men have to learn to skate -- at least aim for that -- while the women can get away with lesser skating skills for a lot longer. I am normally very sceptical of the idea that "it's harder for the men", and the woman's role in lifts does require some skill, but there's no denying that the DOI women can spend most of their routines either holding onto, or being held up by, their partner. So I would like to see some change in the show that meant the women would spend more of their time on skating and less on lifts. IMO, the trainers and choreographers should already be doing that, because they know the judges want to see some skating skills, but for some reason they still haven't done it. Quote:
What do you think of the other judges all picking Sharon? Were they just seizing on the mistake / failed lift in Sinitta's routine, or was there actually a good case for saving Sharon?
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#39 |
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OK right there is the big difference. I can always tell those who learnt to skate as children and those who learnt to skate as adults. It is very much harder learning to skate as an adult and with each passing decade it is harder. If you learn to skate as a child you quickly have the confidence on ice that enables you to go on to learn harder things much more quickly.
As an adult you have many more problems. The fear factor for one which should not be underestimated. You also have to unlearn a lot of muscle memory and like most physical things it is simply harder to learn them the older you are. You imagine trying to learn gymnastics or ballet as an adult if you have never done it before. Ice skating is similarly difficult. People who have skated a bit as children, even if just basic skating round a rink have a discernable ease on the ice which it takes adult learners a long time to emulate if ever. Plus the celebs are really having to learn things way above their actual competence levels to do the routines (which is why most can't do them away from the professionals) Still, I can see your point; and in the "countries with more ice" that I mentioned, more people will have learned as children, and that will be one reason "a wide range of people, of different ages and athletic abilities" will be skating. However, most of the celebs are fairly young, and there are all those weeks of training. I can't help thinking that Emily, for example, would be in a better position if she'd spent 15 minutes playing tag on the ice each time she went out, or just skating around at random. Quote:
I think the other judges were sort of playing by the rules in that Sharron skated better in the skate-off than in the original performance while Sinitta (due to the failed lift) skated worse and therefore Sharron deserved to go through on that basis. Unfortunately that didn't take account of the fact that Sinitta's overall dance was of a higher standard to start with and it still was in the skate-off which Emma rightly pointed out. Would need to look again to see how much skating each did but again Sinittas appeared to look better but I haven't compared the technical content. I was surprised that Jason voted for Sharron but I think he went on the basis that the lift was a fail and again took no account of technical difficulty.
Thanks. It does look like they were going for an obvious reason (who went wrong, who improved) rather than properly evaluating who actually did better overall in the skate off. ![]() Except for Emma.
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#40 |
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The above discussion about the standard of the celebs' basic skating is interesting if somewhat off-topic
.This is where a good companion show would come into its own; what do the celebs spend their time doing in the very early stages? If they have 6 weeks of basic training before the first show (or however long they have got) then how much of that time is spent simply learning the basic skating moves and how early do they start adding lifts and other more flashy moves to the mix? By the look of some of the celebs in the first show (in all series not just this one) it does look as if they haven't put enough effort into learning the basics as they are clinging on for dear life and look as if any attempt to launch out on their own will result in a Titanic scale disaster. However, we don't know that they haven't been focused on the basics for most of the time. They might just not be very good at it. Perhaps all the celebs should have to do a basic skate routine before they do anything else where they have to skate by themselves for at least a certain percentage of the time and can't simply rely on their partner to tow them round and make them look better than they are. It wouldn't necessarily need to be a judged performance; an extra show to kick off the series show-casing basic skating skills might go some way to ensuring that all the celebs had to develop these skills as there would be nowhere to hide. It might be unworkable but maybe it's worth considering? After all, Bonnie looked like she was missing basic skill in series 1 but as we've seen since, it doesn't look as though this was because she lacked the ability - just simply that she was so good at the aerobatics that it was easier to focus on that and let the basic skating lapse somewhat. A shame really because I think she was potentially the best overall performer in series 1 but she didn't get the chance to show us exactly what she could do. |
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#41 |
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Emma Bunton needed some work and to get her face back in the public "eye".
I'd say that's the main reason she is now on the ice panel. |
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#42 |
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She has really irritated me tonight with the continual "I love my job", "you looked really gorgeous", "I'll dance with you", "you've a really nice body" comments.
She's there to judge performances not drool like a school girl over the men
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#43 |
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She has really irritated me tonight with the continual "I love my job", "you looked really gorgeous", "I'll dance with you", "you've a really nice body" comments.
She's there to judge performances not drool like a school girl over the men ![]() |
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#44 |
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We get ITV here in Dublin through UTV..Ulster Television. The continuity chap (who has been there years and is a hoot) began introducing the show saying to us the audience... " so what do we all think of Emma Bunton as judge" before mouthing silently the words.... FULL OF HERSELF !!! He is dead right too. I think she comes across a bit cocky and full on for me.
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#45 |
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I was quite impressed with her last week but she was poor this week. She has definitely developed Arlene's habit of drooling over the good looking boys as well.
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#46 |
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I was quite impressed with her last week but she was poor this week. She has definitely developed Arlene's habit of drooling over the good looking boys as well.
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#47 |
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but Jeremy's a gay bloke which I'm sure she knows, she's not there to judge the skating, she's only there to judge the artistic side of things, not the technical.
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#48 |
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I think the other judges were sort of playing by the rules in that Sharron skated better in the skate-off than in the original performance while Sinitta (due to the failed lift) skated worse and therefore Sharron deserved to go through on that basis. Unfortunately that didn't take account of the fact that Sinitta's overall dance was of a higher standard to start with and it still was in the skate-off which Emma rightly pointed out. Would need to look again to see how much skating each did but again Sinittas appeared to look better but I haven't compared the technical content. I was surprised that Jason voted for Sharron but I think he went on the basis that the lift was a fail and again took no account of technical difficulty. |
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#49 |
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I think she has at least as much right as Jason or Ruthie does. Im sorry, but I have to agree with the others who said this, but if you add a comma, its pretty clear what the show is - Dancing, on ice. In an ideal world the five judges would have a background in ice dancing, but Emma comments on the dance and performance element, and actually did a fine job last week.
And also, I think comments to Alesha are unwarranted, because Strictly has different dances that all have certain rules and regulations that Alesha generally speaking has a poor knowledge of. Unless im mistaken, the celebs on DOI can generally do whatever they like, with the moves chosen by Torvill and Dean, so Emma can actually comment on pure dancing instead of specilized dancing. I thought she did an excellent job on Sunday - she made good comments, and did a good job of giving a negative comment in a constructive way. |
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#50 |
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Didnt say it wasn't accurate but def not relevant. My point is, so what if Emma is only 8 years younger than Ruthie compared to Alesha's 35 years younger than Arlene. Also hasn't Alesha also been performing from a very young age?
It is quite different. Alesha was a competitor in SCD and studied each dance for one week over two years ago. She was dropped by her record label and suddenly became the BBC's pet. She added nothing to the show, was rude and completely out of her depth. She hasn't been in the business for years and was going to University until she was "discovered". Arlene Phillips has a vast knowledge and was passed over for a pretty face. Emma Bunton, however, does have experience from being in the most successful girl band of all time and has been performing since a very early age and going to Stage School. In my view - that is a relevant point. Emma more right to be there than Jason Coleman - she can skate a little and he can't skate at all. |
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