... but a lot of dance moves on toe picks and the like.

Her dance experience allows her to make the most of the toe-pick trick (as did Ray's last year), while the others, who lack such prior dance experience are stuck with less impressive-looking ways to avoid skating.

The use of toe picks is still an ICE skating skill. Get on skates and try to hop around on toe picks - the consequences of messing up with toe picks are worse than the consequences of slipping when you're skating normally. It's so easy to trip on them.

In any case, even if she had the same lack of skating as eveyrone else - she STILL came out and did it with an entirely superior level of confident, speed and attack.

I don't have an issue with general dance experience. I think sometimes (with the combination of HIGH LEVEL skills Ray had) it's a little too much, but generally speaking, I enjoy seeing people learn to adapt their talents in new ways and to bring numerous skills to a new hobby.

I don't think Ray can be accused of such avoidance. Some of his performances featured toe pick moves, but he also mastered the skating element in a way no other celebrity has previously managed; nor I venture to say will do again.

Some uses of toe picks are certainly ice skating skills. There is a reason why the skates have picks, after all. And it can be easy to trip on them, while skating across the ice. (I've had painful experience of that.) And I'm not saying it's trivial to dance around on toe picks. But staying up on the picks is a way to keep from slipping, and -- as Ray demonstrated very thoroughly last year -- that's one of the tricks that can be used to transfer dance moves onto ice in a way that imo is more dancing the happens to be on the ice than ice dancing, and which gives a big advantage to a celeb who already has suitable dance skills.


I don't think her skating was impressive; I'm not sure it was even better than Daniella's.


I don't mind dance experience if it doesn't make too big a difference. I'm sure Danielle had some when she was in stage school (Sylvia Young, same period as Denise van Outen), and Sinitta must have some (I think that was even mentioned). And I agree about seeing people adapting skills.

In my eyes I try to forget about ray , people shouldn't compare him to anyone because he was so good, I would say that it was unlucky for jess being in that year because she was the best female skater in doi history but lacked some charisma like suzanne, claire ect

Some of Ray's performances featured a lot of dancing on tow picks, and a lot of the 'flash' in his routines used such techniques, though he was also a pretty good skater.

NONE of them do much skating imo

They can do forward and backward basic skating
Some crossovers (but most of them aren't great at that either when you really look at it)
And they use mohawks and 3-turns

That's about it though

And SO much of it is in hold and almost anyone could do that. A backward spiral while being pushed along by a professional is a doddle. Doing it on your own not so much a doddle.

I still like watching it, it's entertaining, but very, very few of them get past very basic skating.

I agree - it's very true that the moves are very much easier not so much in hold per se but when you are in hold with a professional skater. That's why I like to see them when they have to skate alone and that really shows what they can or can't do.

Toe pick steps are a recognised element in both dance and free skating but a lot of it (as with skating in general) is about good balance which trained dancers obviously have. It still requires considerable confidence to use the toepicks in such a way though and I am looking forward to seeing Hayley actually use the blade and edges and see what she can do.

The other advantage that Ray had was that he had done dance competitions and so was used to going out in front of judges. There is a huge difference in what you can do when practising and what you can do when you suddenly have judges and an audience and your legs turn to jelly.

To me Heather has a big advantage this year (disability aside as I am not taking that into account) in having done DWTS so she not only learned to dance but to 'perform' with judges/audience and that really helps you look good if you can avoid the 'jelly legs' that come with skating in front of an audience.

Maybe that's why they chose to call it Dancing on Ice - to reflect the knowledge that celebrities were very unlikely to be able to approach any sort of proper ice dancing skating skills and therefore would always have to focus on producing a performance whilst hampered by being on such a slippery surface
The recent state of the pavements round here has made me even more impressed that they don't spend much of their time in a crumpled heap on the ground as many of us have been when we've ventured out!!

I agree - when I practice I can do things really well and then when my instructor asks me to do it it's not half as good! LOL!

I agree; and then my point is that Haley's no exception.


That pick steps are a recognised element is why Hayley's routine wasn't out-and-out cheating, like wearing shoes with spikes on the bottom, rather than skates, would be.

But did anyone in DOI do so much pick-dancing before Ray last year?

If a celeb weren't already a very good dancer, it wouldn't be worth their while to learn pick-dancing, because what would they do with it? They'd still have to learn the dance part, which they wouldn't be able to do so flashily anyway, and it would all take much too long.

But if you are already a good enough dancer, pick-dancing lets you bring in a lot of flashy moves relatively easily. That's why they do it, because it's easier to be so flashy that way than by trying to do something as impressive while gliding over the ice or doing steps that aren't kept from slipping by the picks.

I anticipated such a response, which is why I phrased it as "dancing that happens to be on the ice" rather than as "dancing on ice" or even "dancing on the ice". But you, clever reader, spotted the opportunity anyway.

If someone came out wearing shoes with spikes on the bottom so that they could dance on the ice without falling, I doubt anyone would seriously defend it on the grounds that the show was called "dancing on ice". Pick-dancing is too close to that for me, even though it (unlike the shoes) obviously is allowed.


I am surprised every year when some celebs have so much trouble on the ice when they have to skate out of hold. I have to wonder what they've been doing in their weeks of pre-show training. Spending too much time on lifts, I suspect.

I think something is clearly wrong when a celeb is given choreography that has them standing still on the ice while they perform simple dance moves with their arms and upper bodies. (I'm not talking about Haley here.)

Even Daniella, who seemed able to do some things out of hold on the ice, was given some of that. And surely a little skating could have been added to Emily's routine.

But it's not actually easier to do the dancing on toe picks than it is to do it stood on both feet which lots of them do (dancers or not ) so it's still impressive for any of them to do. And the non-dancers have to learn to dance whether on toe-picks or on the blades so I can't see it matters which they choose to dance on really. I have accepted that this isn't a show about technical ice skating skills, much as i'd like to see more of those.

have to agree with this - she might as well have been on the floor apart from a mini step sequence which due to abysmal camera work I couldn't really make out.

Agree, as a skater I thought Danniella's skating was better. Performance wise though Hayley nailed it.

I don't agree that it would just as easy to do the sort of dancing Haley and Ray did on toe pics in some other way. (I'm not sure what you mean by "stood on both feet".) There must be a reason why they do it on picks, after all.


They need to learn to do things on blades anyway, and they don't have the dance skills to flash about on toe-picks. So, for them, learning to pick-dance doesn't have enough return for the time they'd have to invest. It's only celebs who are already strong dancers who are in a good position to exploit such techniques.

Hayley`s toe pick steps suited the music and dance last week - Let`s wait and see what she comes up with next week

Hayley & Daniella were the only ones to do any skating on their own. That's what I tend to look for especially in the early weeks.

No obviously the jumping on toes type dancing has to go on the toepicks but it's not easier to do that than it would be to do some other sort of flashy dance moves on the blades either stationary or gliding on two feet, so they can be commended for doing it. If you are doing toepick steps and you miss the pick then you are on the floor, whereas if you are on the blades you are likely to stay standing. Dancing on toepicks is not like dancing in spiked shoes that allow you to put your feet flat on the ice for balance and if you fall off the pick you are on the blade and that will slip out from under you due to the movement. I know, I've had that fall!
Also if you look at real ice dancing the Finnstep compulsory is at the highest level and has a toepick dancing section.

Maybe I'm just not explaining it well.

This might already be clear, but I may as well make it explicit. I'm not saying that if there were two people who weren't experienced skaters or dancers, and one decided to learn to dance on toe picks while the other decided to learn to dance while gliding over the ice, that it would be easier for the toe-pick person. I'm not even making that sort of comparison, in which only the toe-pick element changes and everything else is effectively equal.

I don't think it's an accident that the celebs who've done a lot of pick dancing were already very good dancers. My point is that it's easier for someone like that to get some of what they can already do onto the ice by dancing on toe-picks. Of course, they still have to make some changes and adjustments. But if it were just as easy to get that stuff onto the ice in some other way, they wouldn't bother to spend time learning to pick-dance.

Moves the celebs do when the blades are stationary just make it look like they can't skate and need to fill time with something that still qualifies as dance.

Moves you make when gliding are moves you can't do on a floor (unless it's a pretty slippery one ) But that cuts both ways. You can't just put floor moves onto ice if you're going to be gliding and sliding. It's easier to get some of those floor moves onto the ice if you can stick your feet to the ice by being up on your toe picks. And that's why there's enough return on the time invested in learning pick dancing for it to be worth their while and for them to prefer that approach to some other one.


The picks are like spikes in that they dig into the ice so that it's harder to slip. It is very easy to fall, on blades, if you're not an experienced skater. I'm not saying pick-dancing is easy, though, or without risks. It does, however, let you do moves that rely on not sliding.

The point is that it makes it easier to get flashy dancing that you can already do onto the ice. There's no point in someone who isn't already a very good dancer taking that route, because they'd have to learn to use the picks that way, in addition to all the other things they already have to learn, and they still wouldn't have the dance moves to put on top.

The pick moves suit some types of music but not others. Have you tried doing those toe pick steps? - if you have you will know that it isn't comparable to something that stops you from slipping because you have to get the balance over the pick just right or you will definitely slip and have a very nasty fall. It's more like a ballet dancer doing en pointe in that it's not easier than ballet not en pointe.

I have no argument over the fact that it is easier for dancers to do the flashy moves regardless of what part of the blade they are on.

A non dancer with good balance though may find they can do some of those flashy toepick moves and as it is more leaping about than dancing I think a non-dancer could make them look good.

Either way I'd rather see that than endless lifts wouldn't you?

I thought Hayley's routine was all theatrics. I didn't find her actual skating any more impressive than Daniella, Sharon or Sinitta.

I know I'm in the minority but I'm already finding Hayley and her partner quite irritating. I'm not keen on the fact that they've been friends since childhood. Developing a chemistry with a virtual stranger and conveying that to the audience is all part of the challenge of DOI. If that connection is already there, and you are already comfortable in each other's company, it makes life a lot easier. They've got a head start.

Of course pick-dancing suits some things more than others, and I haven't said (or implied) otherwise.

But being up on the picks is not only comparable to something that stops you from slipping, it is something that stops you from slipping. Of course, it doesn't stop you absolutely, no matter what. You can get it wrong and fall, and I didn't say it was easy to avoid such mistakes.

But it lets you do moves that rely on not sliding -- which you couldn't do if you didn't have a way to stop from sliding. I'm not saying it guarantees that the moves will work. You might make a mistake. You might just be unlucky. But it's a way to do it.


Sure, but that's not really the point.

I think it's clear that some of the dancers (Ray and Haley, or perhaps it's whoever's advising them) can see the opportunity that pick-dancing provides, and that that's why they spend the time learning to pick-dance that they could have spent in other ways.

My view explains why they spend their time in the way they actually do; yours seems to leave it as an arbitrary choice or a mystery.


Perhaps ones with certain athletic skills. Maybe it just needs a non-dancing Ray to pave the way. But for most of them, it's not worth adding pick-dancing to the list of things they already have to learn.


Yes, but I think it gives the strong dancers even more of an advantage and that it lets them be a lot flashier than they'd be if pick-dancing weren't allowed.

They are all choreographed to their strengths though so it doesn't bother me whether they do it on picks or on the blade. Donal last year had the hydroglide move which is very difficult for most people, even some quite advanced skaters but it looked good for him so was included. Bonnie barely skated in the shows as she looked so good in the air so that's what she got. So if any of them have the skills to use the toepick moves then that's what they'll get. It adds variety to the show.

Dancers already have an advantage in the show so how they showcase those skills they have doesn't matter to me.

But I will still be looking to see how good she is on her edges when she is skating and that's probably why overall I preferred Daniellas routine.

Heard good reports about Hayley's next routine, she's skating even more on her own this week, apparently their routine is amazing. Can't wait to see it