Hayley's routine was absolutely marvellous, with plenty of content; she had charisma, enthusiasm and charm, made no mistakes, and it was only week one! Daniella's skating was very impressive, and she too had charm - hard to pick between them, at this stage. Can't wait to see them both on Sunday!
There was little skating in Haley's routine ...
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Originally Posted by icedragon:
“They are all choreographed to their strengths though so it doesn't bother me whether they do it on picks or on the blade. Donal last year had the hydroglide move which is very difficult for most people, even some quite advanced skaters but it looked good for him so was included. Bonnie barely skated in the shows as she looked so good in the air so that's what she got. So if any of them have the skills to use the toepick moves then that's what they'll get. It adds variety to the show.
Dancers already have an advantage in the show so how they showcase those skills they have doesn't matter to me.
But I will still be looking to see how good she is on her edges when she is skating and that's probably why overall I preferred Daniellas routine.”
“They are all choreographed to their strengths though so it doesn't bother me whether they do it on picks or on the blade. Donal last year had the hydroglide move which is very difficult for most people, even some quite advanced skaters but it looked good for him so was included. Bonnie barely skated in the shows as she looked so good in the air so that's what she got. So if any of them have the skills to use the toepick moves then that's what they'll get. It adds variety to the show.
Dancers already have an advantage in the show so how they showcase those skills they have doesn't matter to me.
But I will still be looking to see how good she is on her edges when she is skating and that's probably why overall I preferred Daniellas routine.”
Dancers already have an advantage, but why should they get an even greater one?
From my point of view, you seem to be missing the point. Maybe I haven't explained it well enough, or maybe you disagree with my point but haven't given a reason that (to me) properly connects to it. I don't know.
Of course, things are included in routines because the celeb can do them and because they look good, but that's virtually irrelevant. It makes no difference to what I'm saying.
You seem to think that using picks or blades are equivalent in cost-benefit terms, so that it's just as easy (or just as hard) "to do some other sort of flashy dance moves on the blades", and so that the reason for picking picks or blades is as trivial as adding variety.
I don't think that's true. Imo, Haley and, last year, Ray could not have been so flashy and impressive if they hadn't done pick dancing -- not in the time they had for learning techniques and preparing routines.
Pick dancing isn't quite cheating (like wearing spiked shoes would be); but it's only about one step back from cheating.
Originally Posted by Veri:
“Dancers already have an advantage, but why should they get an even greater one?
From my point of view, you seem to be missing the point. Maybe I haven't explained it well enough, or maybe you disagree with my point but haven't given a reason that (to me) properly connects to it. I don't know.
Of course, things are included in routines because the celeb can do them and because they look good, but that's virtually irrelevant. It makes no difference to what I'm saying.
You seem to think that using picks or blades are equivalent in cost-benefit terms, so that it's just as easy (or just as hard) "to do some other sort of flashy dance moves on the blades", and so that the reason for picking picks or blades is as trivial as adding variety.
I don't think that's true. Imo, Haley and, last year, Ray could not have been so flashy and impressive if they hadn't done pick dancing -- not in the time they had for learning techniques and preparing routines.
Pick dancing isn't quite cheating (like wearing spiked shoes would be); but it's only about one step back from cheating.”
“Dancers already have an advantage, but why should they get an even greater one?
From my point of view, you seem to be missing the point. Maybe I haven't explained it well enough, or maybe you disagree with my point but haven't given a reason that (to me) properly connects to it. I don't know.
Of course, things are included in routines because the celeb can do them and because they look good, but that's virtually irrelevant. It makes no difference to what I'm saying.
You seem to think that using picks or blades are equivalent in cost-benefit terms, so that it's just as easy (or just as hard) "to do some other sort of flashy dance moves on the blades", and so that the reason for picking picks or blades is as trivial as adding variety.
I don't think that's true. Imo, Haley and, last year, Ray could not have been so flashy and impressive if they hadn't done pick dancing -- not in the time they had for learning techniques and preparing routines.
Pick dancing isn't quite cheating (like wearing spiked shoes would be); but it's only about one step back from cheating.”
But they are not getting a 'greater' advantage - everyone is allowed to use toepicks. It is in no way cheating or even close to it. Dancers may find it easier to use toepicks to good effect than non dancers but people who have other sporting backgrounds and therefore greater body awareness and balance may also find they are good on toepicks and can use it. Anything more is the same dance advantage as on blades to me.
The show is not designed to be a level playing field. Dancers will look better whether they are using picks or blades than non dancers. In Ray's case it just so happened that he was able to to really take to the skating as well. Will that be the case for Hayley? I don't know yet but am interested to see.
Originally Posted by icedragon:
“But they are not getting a 'greater' advantage - everyone is allowed to use toepicks.”
“But they are not getting a 'greater' advantage - everyone is allowed to use toepicks.”
I have already explained why it's only strong dancers who can reasonably take advantage of it.
And it gives them a greater advantage because it lets them get flashy off-ice moves onto the ice more easily.
Quote:
“ It is in no way cheating or even close to it. ”
“ It is in no way cheating or even close to it. ”
It is close, for the reasons I've given.
Quote:
“Dancers may find it easier to use toepicks to good effect than non dancers but people who have other sporting backgrounds and therefore greater body awareness and balance may also find they are good on toepicks and can use it. Anything more is the same dance advantage as on blades to me.”
“Dancers may find it easier to use toepicks to good effect than non dancers but people who have other sporting backgrounds and therefore greater body awareness and balance may also find they are good on toepicks and can use it. Anything more is the same dance advantage as on blades to me.”
It is not the same advantage, for the reasons I've already given in earlier posts.
You still seem to think that using picks or blades are equivalent in cost-benefit terms, so that it's just as easy (or just as hard) "to do some other sort of flashy dance moves on the blades". But they are not equivalent.
Contestants with sporting backgrounds would not have the dance moves to use on the picks; so it is not cost-effective for them to learn pick-dancing rather than spend time on other skills that will help them more generally in DOI.
Until you see the cost-benefit point, we'll continue to talk past each other and have to repeat the same things again and again.
Quote:
“The show is not designed to be a level playing field. Dancers will look better whether they are using picks or blades than non dancers. In Ray's case it just so happened that he was able to to really take to the skating as well. Will that be the case for Hayley? I don't know yet but am interested to see.”
“The show is not designed to be a level playing field. Dancers will look better whether they are using picks or blades than non dancers. In Ray's case it just so happened that he was able to to really take to the skating as well. Will that be the case for Hayley? I don't know yet but am interested to see.”
Sure, dancers already have an advantage, but why should they get an even greater one?
Haley stayed away from pick-dancing this week, and as a result her routine was much less instantly impressive.
Nicky rightly pointed to the slowness and lack of independent skating.
Nicky rightly pointed to the slowness and lack of independent skating.
Originally Posted by Veri:
“Haley stayed away from pick-dancing this week, and as a result her routine was much less instantly impressive.
Nicky rightly pointed to the slowness and lack of independent skating.”
“Haley stayed away from pick-dancing this week, and as a result her routine was much less instantly impressive.
Nicky rightly pointed to the slowness and lack of independent skating.”
Disagree Veri - going on Nicky's logic 3's across the board would have given Hayley and Dan a meagre 15 in total - surely no one suggests their performance was so lack lustre.
imo she is one of only two females capable of skating independently (Daniella is also quite good) and as for the slowness the music was not exactly fast and frantic.
With 3 from Nicky I wonder if he is planning on awarding a minus mark later on.
Originally Posted by Ignazio:
“Disagree Veri - going on Nicky's logic 3's across the board would have given Hayley and Dan a meagre 15 in total - surely no one suggests their performance was so lack lustre.
imo she is one of only two females capable of skating independently (Daniella is also quite good) and as for the slowness the music was not exactly fast and frantic.
With 3 from Nicky I wonder if he is planning on awarding a minus mark later on.”
“Disagree Veri - going on Nicky's logic 3's across the board would have given Hayley and Dan a meagre 15 in total - surely no one suggests their performance was so lack lustre.
imo she is one of only two females capable of skating independently (Daniella is also quite good) and as for the slowness the music was not exactly fast and frantic.
With 3 from Nicky I wonder if he is planning on awarding a minus mark later on.”
I wasn't agreeing with the particular number he chose, just with his comments. I think all of them could do some independent skating, if it was in their routines and they practiced it; but it's interesting that Haley, who seems one of the stronger skaters, didn't do it.
Skaters can move rapidly over the ice even when the music isn't fast and frantic.
Originally Posted by Veri:
“... but a lot of dance moves on toe picks and the like.
Her dance experience allows her to make the most of the toe-pick trick (as did Ray's last year), while the others, who lack such prior dance experience are stuck with less impressive-looking ways to avoid skating.”
“... but a lot of dance moves on toe picks and the like.
Her dance experience allows her to make the most of the toe-pick trick (as did Ray's last year), while the others, who lack such prior dance experience are stuck with less impressive-looking ways to avoid skating.”
What are you on about?! Dancing on toe picks is something that all the worlds top skaters HAVE to do! Watch any routine from the winter olympics or world championships. Its an essential ice skating skill and its actually bloody hard, requiring lots of balance.
Originally Posted by Veri:
“I wasn't agreeing with the particular number he chose, just with his comments. I think all of them could do some independent skating, if it was in their routines and they practiced it; but it's interesting that Haley, who seems one of the stronger skaters, didn't do it.
Skaters can move rapidly over the ice even when the music isn't fast and frantic.”
“I wasn't agreeing with the particular number he chose, just with his comments. I think all of them could do some independent skating, if it was in their routines and they practiced it; but it's interesting that Haley, who seems one of the stronger skaters, didn't do it.
Skaters can move rapidly over the ice even when the music isn't fast and frantic.”
Fair enough Veri - I understand your reasoning, but if Hayley is capable of strong solo skating then we must question the choreography - and that is down to Jayne and Chris.
i personally thought it was boring and why do daniels partners rarely skatew on their own? they all seemed to be dragged round or lifted up
it was good with some lifts but didnt do anything for me
it was good with some lifts but didnt do anything for me
Originally Posted by -Sid-:
“I thought Hayley's routine was all theatrics. I didn't find her actual skating any more impressive than Daniella, Sharon or Sinitta.
I know I'm in the minority but I'm already finding Hayley and her partner quite irritating. I'm not keen on the fact that they've been friends since childhood. Developing a chemistry with a virtual stranger and conveying that to the audience is all part of the challenge of DOI. If that connection is already there, and you are already comfortable in each other's company, it makes life a lot easier. They've got a head start.”
“I thought Hayley's routine was all theatrics. I didn't find her actual skating any more impressive than Daniella, Sharon or Sinitta.
I know I'm in the minority but I'm already finding Hayley and her partner quite irritating. I'm not keen on the fact that they've been friends since childhood. Developing a chemistry with a virtual stranger and conveying that to the audience is all part of the challenge of DOI. If that connection is already there, and you are already comfortable in each other's company, it makes life a lot easier. They've got a head start.”
I was really surprised, that because Hayley and Daniel have been friends for many years, that they let them skate togther to be honest, because they seem to have a big advantage over the others already having a close relationship. whereas all of the others have to work at that as well as learning to skate!
Originally Posted by Veri:
“I have already explained why it's only strong dancers who can reasonably take advantage of it.
And it gives them a greater advantage because it lets them get flashy off-ice moves onto the ice more easily.
It is close, for the reasons I've given.
It is not the same advantage, for the reasons I've already given in earlier posts.
You still seem to think that using picks or blades are equivalent in cost-benefit terms, so that it's just as easy (or just as hard) "to do some other sort of flashy dance moves on the blades". But they are not equivalent.
Contestants with sporting backgrounds would not have the dance moves to use on the picks; so it is not cost-effective for them to learn pick-dancing rather than spend time on other skills that will help them more generally in DOI.
Until you see the cost-benefit point, we'll continue to talk past each other and have to repeat the same things again and again.
Sure, dancers already have an advantage, but why should they get an even greater one?”
“I have already explained why it's only strong dancers who can reasonably take advantage of it.
And it gives them a greater advantage because it lets them get flashy off-ice moves onto the ice more easily.
It is close, for the reasons I've given.
It is not the same advantage, for the reasons I've already given in earlier posts.
You still seem to think that using picks or blades are equivalent in cost-benefit terms, so that it's just as easy (or just as hard) "to do some other sort of flashy dance moves on the blades". But they are not equivalent.
Contestants with sporting backgrounds would not have the dance moves to use on the picks; so it is not cost-effective for them to learn pick-dancing rather than spend time on other skills that will help them more generally in DOI.
Until you see the cost-benefit point, we'll continue to talk past each other and have to repeat the same things again and again.
Sure, dancers already have an advantage, but why should they get an even greater one?”
Sorry Veri I disagree with you and quite strongly. I have no dance background yet have often used toepick moves in my dance and free skating in competitions and very successfully too - it's not cheating and I won't have you claiming it is - that's just wrong.
Over and out!
Originally Posted by icedragon:
“Sorry Veri I disagree with you and quite strongly. I have no dance background yet have often used toepick moves in my dance and free skating in competitions and very successfully too - it's not cheating and I won't have you claiming it is - that's just wrong.
Over and out!”
“Sorry Veri I disagree with you and quite strongly. I have no dance background yet have often used toepick moves in my dance and free skating in competitions and very successfully too - it's not cheating and I won't have you claiming it is - that's just wrong.
Over and out!”
I agree. If a dance background gives you such an advantage why is Jeremy so dreadful when he used to be a ballet dancer?!
What I dont get is why wasnt Hayley allowed to do the required element the spiral with out holding onto Dan?? There is a fabulous pic of her in training doing this move totally alone and with her leg higher than Dan got his tonight, its almost like T&D didnt want to show off her skills to the max by making her hold onto Dan for the move.
Also I dont think it matters that much that Dan and Hayley have kknown each other before as Dan has always had a good relationship with his partners its just his way.
Also I dont think it matters that much that Dan and Hayley have kknown each other before as Dan has always had a good relationship with his partners its just his way.
For me it's Emily who doesn't actually skate - will she ever have the courage to dare it on her own, even for a few seconds, without Fred holding her hands, towing or lifting her?
Hayley showed with her 1st routine that she can skate on her own & it would have been nice to see again. Heather & Sharron actually did more on their own. Hopefully it will get taken on board as when Nicky criticised Suzanne for this in series 3.
Originally Posted by Vodka_Drinka:
“I agree. If a dance background gives you such an advantage why is Jeremy so dreadful when he used to be a ballet dancer?!”
“I agree. If a dance background gives you such an advantage why is Jeremy so dreadful when he used to be a ballet dancer?!”
That's the nature of advantages. Getting a 10 second head start in a race is an advantage, for example, but it doesn't guarantee you'll win.
Saying that something gives an advantage does not mean it cannot ever be outweighed by other factors.
Originally Posted by icedragon:
“Sorry Veri I disagree with you and quite strongly. I have no dance background yet have often used toepick moves in my dance and free skating in competitions and very successfully too - it's not cheating and I won't have you claiming it is - that's just wrong.
Over and out!”
“Sorry Veri I disagree with you and quite strongly. I have no dance background yet have often used toepick moves in my dance and free skating in competitions and very successfully too - it's not cheating and I won't have you claiming it is - that's just wrong.
Over and out!”
I didn't say it is cheating; I was making the point more forcefully, since that might be clearer, but of course such moves are allowed.
Toepick moves don't necessarily amount to the sort of "pick-dancing" Ray and Hayley have done; and imo there's also an important difference between doing some steps on picks as a small part of a long routine and being up on picks for so much of the time.
Being on toe picks requires a lot of skill and balance, most sports people would have this as well as dancers. The part that dancers actually benefit in is the upper body, the lines of their arms, though if you had musicality you could also have that without dancing. Anything could be perceived an an advantage in doi, sports people are used to the injuries, training, performance in front of a crowd, dancers are also used to performance and music etc, young are better than old people, older people get a sympathy vote. The only real advantage is actually being able to skate, but then people might not vote for you.
Kyran Bracken said on another forum that dancers don't have anywhere near the advantage people think they do and mostly tend to go out quite early.
I think Hayley simply has very good balance, and can skate and uses the dance with her upper body and performance...
We have a very even field this year, it's great. I loved the competition of series 2 and 3 and am glad we're returning to that.
Kyran Bracken said on another forum that dancers don't have anywhere near the advantage people think they do and mostly tend to go out quite early.
I think Hayley simply has very good balance, and can skate and uses the dance with her upper body and performance...
We have a very even field this year, it's great. I loved the competition of series 2 and 3 and am glad we're returning to that.
Originally Posted by Tiger Rose:
“Hayley & Daniella were the only ones to do any skating on their own. That's what I tend to look for especially in the early weeks.”
“Hayley & Daniella were the only ones to do any skating on their own. That's what I tend to look for especially in the early weeks.”
Yes, me too Tiger Rose and this is why I think that they are the front runners at the moment. They have got really great lines and poise as well!
Originally Posted by slappers r us:
“I wonder how good haley would have been if she had not conveniently been Dans partner”
“I wonder how good haley would have been if she had not conveniently been Dans partner”
Personally, I think that Hayley is a natural and she would have been great with anybody but what she does have that benifits her with Dan is the rapport!
Originally Posted by TraceyUK:
“What I dont get is why wasnt Hayley allowed to do the required element the spiral with out holding onto Dan?? There is a fabulous pic of her in training doing this move totally alone and with her leg higher than Dan got his tonight, its almost like T&D didnt want to show off her skills to the max by making her hold onto Dan for the move.
Also I dont think it matters that much that Dan and Hayley have kknown each other before as Dan has always had a good relationship with his partners its just his way.”
“What I dont get is why wasnt Hayley allowed to do the required element the spiral with out holding onto Dan?? There is a fabulous pic of her in training doing this move totally alone and with her leg higher than Dan got his tonight, its almost like T&D didnt want to show off her skills to the max by making her hold onto Dan for the move.
Also I dont think it matters that much that Dan and Hayley have kknown each other before as Dan has always had a good relationship with his partners its just his way.”
Tracey, maybe it was because Hayley pulled her groin yesterday in rehearsals and she could not get her leg up that high!
Originally Posted by laur_od:
“Being on toe picks requires a lot of skill and balance, most sports people would have this as well as dancers.”
“Being on toe picks requires a lot of skill and balance, most sports people would have this as well as dancers.”
Sure, but they don't have the dance moves to use once they're up, so the cost-benefit analysis produces a different result than for dancers.
Quote:
“ The part that dancers actually benefit in is the upper body, the lines of their arms, though if you had musicality you could also have that without dancing. Anything could be perceived an an advantage in doi, sports people are used to the injuries, training, performance in front of a crowd, dancers are also used to performance and music etc, young are better than old people, older people get a sympathy vote. The only real advantage is actually being able to skate, but then people might not vote for you.”
“ The part that dancers actually benefit in is the upper body, the lines of their arms, though if you had musicality you could also have that without dancing. Anything could be perceived an an advantage in doi, sports people are used to the injuries, training, performance in front of a crowd, dancers are also used to performance and music etc, young are better than old people, older people get a sympathy vote. The only real advantage is actually being able to skate, but then people might not vote for you.”
Many things give an advantage. If that weren't so, there'd be no differences in how well the different contestants could do except where they had different amounts of skating experience, which is obviously false.
Quote:
“Kyran Bracken said on another forum that dancers don't have anywhere near the advantage people think they do and mostly tend to go out quite early.”
“Kyran Bracken said on another forum that dancers don't have anywhere near the advantage people think they do and mostly tend to go out quite early.”
Who are the dancers and when did they go out? I'd be surprised if Kyran has looked at it properly.
Leaving aside whether this skill gives an unfair advantage or not - the two celebs who seem to be under the microscope are Ray and Hayley who are there because their previous dance experience/talent gives them an obvious technique to get (especially) early votes.
Looking at Ray - does anyone think that (ignoring individual preferences) he was not deserving of his win on pure skating skill?
As for Hayley, that has yet to be seen. However, taking everything into account, she's comfortably in the top group of celebs. Nothing she's done "toepick wise" has helped her particularly yet. If she starts managing to pull the wool over people's eyes later on by using the magic of toepicks to dazzle everyone against her lack of proper skating ability then I might think there's a tangible point to this discussion. (Not that I don't see what the point is - just that I don't think this particular skill has attained any real advantage in terms of competition for either of these celebrities... yet.)
Looking at Ray - does anyone think that (ignoring individual preferences) he was not deserving of his win on pure skating skill?
As for Hayley, that has yet to be seen. However, taking everything into account, she's comfortably in the top group of celebs. Nothing she's done "toepick wise" has helped her particularly yet. If she starts managing to pull the wool over people's eyes later on by using the magic of toepicks to dazzle everyone against her lack of proper skating ability then I might think there's a tangible point to this discussion. (Not that I don't see what the point is - just that I don't think this particular skill has attained any real advantage in terms of competition for either of these celebrities... yet.)
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