I find it difficult to say, since I found him so incredibly irritating. I don't think his skating was as good as people thought it was, but whether it was nonetheless better than everyone else's, I don't know.


I think it played a part in how impressive her week 1 routine seemed, and so affected her marks, the praise from the judges, and viewer perceptions. I think it made her seem better than Daniella when she wasn't.

I think he was clearly the best last series but I think overall impression was helped by poor competition. In terms of ability, I never saw him as that much better than Kyran or Chris - I think his dance background made him look a bit more polished than those two. However, from a personal perspective I find Kyran & Chris' skating more enjoyable to watch.

Do you actually think you know more about the show and this than kyran????? He is a non dancer, why would he say this if it wasn't true?
Also you think that Hayley just looks better to the viewers is why she'd getting better marks from the likes of robin cousins...
Also daniella went to Sylvia Young, so I think you're just picking your facts a bit here... And I'm not a big Hayley fan... Also Zaraah is more dance trained than Hayley...

I didn't say that. But if he hasn't looked at it properly, then I don't think his opinion is worth any more than anyone else's.

Do you think he's looked at all the contestants, divided them into dancers and non-dancers, and calculated how well their exit week correlates with their amount of dancing experience? I doubt he has done anything of the sort.


Because he believes it's true, of course!


I struggle to parse that sentence. Are you saying I think Haley gets better marks because she looks better to viewers?


What does Daniella going to Sylvia Young have to do with it? :confuse:

(BTW, I pointed out myself that she went to Sylvia Young. I did it in the thread about tonight's show, and also in week 1 when the show was making it sound like she hadn't danced before.)

I'd agree with that to a certain extent but it's a bit early to say whether that initial perception will take her further than she would otherwise go. She's certainly worth her place for a good few weeks yet I'd say, and even if she gets a week or two further than her basic skating dictates, she wouldn't exactly be the first. Only if that toe pick skill generates an impression that takes an inferior skating talent to an overall victory would I say you had a real point in this.

My comment relates to this... Her performance seeming impressive affected the marks that people like Robin Cousins would give her?? Basically she fooled everyone did she? Skating judges marked her above Daniella because of the toe-picking?

Where Daniella went also makes her very well trained... You seem to think Hayley has an unfair advantage. The same one John Barrowman had, Lisa Scott Lee had, Samantha Mumba had, Zaraah Abrahams had, Jeremy had... Dance training does not equal skating success...
It doesn't equal someone looking polished either, chris fountain still wasn't graceful. He was though a good skater...

Have you correlated exact dance experience? I still think he
knows far far more, and would have a far better chance of knowing exact experience. how you can say someones opinion who has won the show and still works extremely closely with the show and is close to everyone on it would be the same as yours is beyond me...

You don't seem to be arguing against what I said but instead against something else.

I didn't say she fooled everyone or that dance training equals skating success.

The idea that merely attending a stage school gives Daniella the same advantage as a bunch of other people is odd, to say the least, as is the idea that all of the ones you list somehow have the same advantage when they would have had different amounts of training at different distances into the past, and probably also some different types of training as well.

Anyway, do you think that how impressive a performance seems has no effect on marks? You're welcome to think that if you want, but I think it's pretty obviously false.


Try it yourself, even roughly. Who were the dancers in last years series and when did they go out? Or try the series before, or any one you chose.

That would be worth more than simply pointing to something Kyran said.


Why would he know anything significant about it. Surely he hasn't been looking into the background of everyone who's been on the show.


What has Kyran done in connection with the show that would even have him looking at the question in any kind of systematic way? That he won certainly doesn't help you.

So dancing and toe picks are directly linked? some people...
john, zaraah and jeremy are exceptionally well trained dancers. Lisa Scott Lee is also. Lisa and zaraah being pretty recent. Zaraah is probably better qualified than Hayley. We seem to have about a 50/50 success rate with dancers, generally can't remember much toe picking or people being bowled over by this. half go far cos they pick up skating, half don't, the ones who can't skate don't get away with toe picks for one if they aren't good skaters they don't even try cos it's very difficult. I have no idea why you're picking on Hayley. Because god forbid she also seems to have a natural appitude for skating, which shock horror some people have with or without dancing. dancing helps your upper body, your lines, though people with musicality would have this also. It would not provide much help with toe picks in particular, no more than balance with a sport would... Dancing and toe pickability are not dependent on eachother.
How you seem to consider yourself a better judge of skating ability than the judges, she did toe picks well so it equals a high mark. The judges she's danced as well, like with actors they expect more performance etc. How impressive something looks goes on the performance marks which she didn't appear to do well in as they said they found her annoying...
And it defies logic that Kyran would not know more than you about people he knows, works with and is friends with. Of course he knows their backgrounds. He's competed against these people, been on tour with them. He's hired these people. He still works closely with the show. He would be aware of who is/isn't a dancer and they're level of experience more than we would. He writes blogs on the show and the contestants... I can't believe you're agruing this...
Honestly this is pointless. I think you're on some sort of manifesto with tunnel vision and will ignore all evidence.
Yes Hayley got her marks because she did toe picks which is terribly unfair cos god forbid like lots who have both succeeded and failed on the show before her she has some dance experience.

I think Jeremy's exit proves how futile and empty of logic your argument is, Veri He's a dancer with MORE training than Hayley. He should have MORE balance, core strength, and musicality than her.

As for Hayley "fooling" people - she fooled the skating judges, did she? Gold medal winners were fooled by the toe picks? They must be pretty stupid to allow that to happen.

I found Hayley's performance yesterday MORE impressive than the first week.

Ray did some flashy toepick moves that looked great - so did Hayley. Ray followed it up by showing he could skate well on the blades (not anywhere close to the Olympic standard some people liked to think but pretty good for a beginner) and his dance training helped him look great doing it whether on blades or toepicks.

We haven't seen enough of Hayley yet to tell.

Other skaters have used toepicks - maybe less effectively but then they have often used the blades less effectively too which makes the dance advantage such as it is, a more general 'dance' advantage and not confined to toepick moves.

Some dancers aren't that good on them and some dancers (Jeremy) aren't that good on the blades either, usually because they can't overcome the fear so they don't attack the ice but (figuratively! ) tip toe across it. Jeremy was scared of getting any power into his skating and was very much on top of the ice instead of getting down into it.

By using her toepicks the way she did Hayley demonstrated she wasn't afraid of the ice which augurs well for her skating.

Kyran and Chris were not dancers but were fearless and able to attack the ice and use power. they had other advantages too.

The ones who are at a disadvantage are those who are older, and not sports or dance people like poor Dr Hilary.

I have only one word to say to that.....JEREMY!

Bless 'im

Yeah I should have said dancers 'who can get over their fear of the ice' have an advantage

He looked absolutely terrified the whole time so never got to use his dance skills poor dab!

Do you think its too late to get him onto Strictly? Much more his 'cup of tea'

You mean 43 year old actor Jeremy who "trained as a ballet dancer - but had his dream career cut short after suffering a broken toe and torn ligament"? How long ago was this training? How much dancing does he do now? Is there any evidence that Jeremy is a stronger dancer now than actress Haley who "starred in countless musicals, including Grease, Boogie Nights, The Rocky Horror Show and Mamma Mia!" ?

Because when trying to deny that dancers have an advantage, people make two mistakes:

1. They look at something about training, often many years ago (and often with no evidence that they were ever good at it). The advantage is given by how strong a dancer the person is now.

2. They confuse advantage with net advantage, as if anything that gives an advantage must automatically outweigh all other factors.

Haley pops up very easily and comfortably onto her toes when wearing skates, I've noticed.


I didn't say she "fooled"anyone. That's a word someone else brought in.


I think the more relevant comparison is to other skaters in the first week. Haley got higher marks that Daniella, for some reason.

Oh not this again...
There's this big conspiracy that everyone is in all and they all aren't only keeping hush hush about how much an advantage dancers have, there's a big cover up and everyone lying about it...
Hayley got higher marks (and my fav girl is Daniella) because she actually skated better...
Jeremy would never be allowed on strictly, the ice takes most of the advantage out of dance experience, however just on a dance show it might count for something lol

Oh? Which people? It's not anything I've said.

What makes Zaraah better qualified than Haley?

In any case, it's how strong a dancer someone is now that matters, not whatever training they've had.


You seem to be counting people as "dancers" if they've merely been to a stage school. Who knows what Kyran is counting?

And if you or Kyran think an advantage has to result in someone lasting long in the show, you're making the 2nd mistake I mentioned above.


There wasn't much until Ray showed what someone with strong dance ability could do with it. Then the very next year, we find another strong dancer trying it.


I've already explained why it's different for dancers and athletes at least twice.


There are no performance marks in DOI.


Which was just one aspect -- one, moreover, which clearly did not outweigh everything else.


No, Kyran's competed against some of them, he'll know the background of some of them; and I doubt very much that he's made a proper, systematic study of it -- or that he'd even know how. Is he trained as a statistician?

He's just giving an opinion, and if his point is that they "tend to go out quite early", he's not looking at it in the right way anyway.

Conspiracy? You must be thinking I've said something very different than I have.

Except that Hayley didn't skate better and Daniella isn't my fave.

Again you're responding to something very different from what I've said.

That's cos I wasn't talking to you about jeremy... There are other people here... Or have you noticed you're pretty much alone in ur argument...
It took you along time to come up with these arguments...
Also you're opinion isn't worth any more than mine on who skater better. I shall simply point out that you stein the minority and let it at that.
You seem to think they're all being hush hush about something or that everyone is lying about dance advantage especially Hayleys and that there is some sort of big cover up. I think you look a bit silly quite frankly and I'll let you with the fact that this is a light entertainment show as I've said previously you seem to tunnel vision to other arguments so there's no point.
Yes Hayley can do toe picks purely cos she can dance...

I find Hayley annoying no matter how she skates? I can't help it something a bit desperate about her!

Whilst you're entitled to your opinion and I'm not saying Kyrans opinion is gods or anything, but it's undoubtedly infinetly more insightful, informative and knowledgeable than yours. You may disagree with him, but you cannot surely argue that you're opinion is as well informed, you just seem to be trying to devalue his as you say he's not properly qualified to say this, odd. Spare yourself and drop this, you look a bit silly, no offence intended... I'm not going to go into this any further as it's completely pointless...

Yes, she got marked down on her peformance (this is a part of the general mark, why people dont get this I dont know) for being a bit annoying with the smile. It was more tonned down this week though and hopefully she'll continue that. She's a good skater for this point in the competition and has the potential to be very good but she needs to watch being a bit overpowering a little or she could start to grate people and end up in the skate a bit. Putting that aside though she's the best girl skater technically at this point, though Daniella who is my fav I think has the potential to be just as good if not a better skater and also is more likeable generally and has surprised people a lot more (so the journey is there lol). Not that I dont like Hayleys personality I do and I've heard she'd really lovely in real life, but for this she needs to calm down a bit...
I think desperate is a bit of a funny criticism though, she's just keen to do well, I always find it funny how the boys are never called desperate, just ambitious...

Jeremy says being able to dance was not an advantage:

http://entertainment.stv.tv/tv/15324...n-ice-chances/

Well it wasn't for him as he hadn't got to grips with the basic ice skating moves first and was still plainly terrified on skates. He did do lovely arms though


His main complaint seems to be more about people's expectations being higher rather than in it's effect on his abilities to learn to skate/ice dance

Fear of the ice is a big thing, barring being able to skate competently before the show, you can't really do anything with any abilites whatever they may be until you've gotten over that and learned the basics.
That's the only common advantage i can see from dancing, they have some rhythem (if they can stand on ice skates, though I'd like to think lots of non dancers have this) and some of them have nice arms. As regards the rest of their bodies it tends to be a mixed bag lol...

Perceived advantages and expectations are always a problem with these types of shows of course, the same as increased expectations throughout the show. People automatically expect different things of different people it's only natural, that is obvious and that applies to tonnes of things. I expected Emily to be good almost purely because of her build, it's reasonably suited to ice skating and i expected her to capitalise on that and so had high expectations of her. But things operate the other way around too, for me a sports star who comes onto the ice with some rhythem (why I assume they dont have any I dont know) gets an extra gloss as opposed to someone I know to have danced/acted and I know I shouldnt really do this as I dont really allow for performance in front of a crowd, dealing with competition pressure, training, injuries etc as the perceived advantages the other way around. I've stopped expecting a dancer to be a skater though, that went out the window a couple of series' ago. We all perceive certain things to be advantages with this type of show and judge according, having danced tends to be a common one and it can be fatal and we tend to be mistaken on it quite bit. I thought Samantha Mumba was going to be great, opps... I was also like "oh" not long out of italia conti and qualified dance teacher this should be excellent with zaraah, bland, bland...

Well Hayley can skate on her own and exceptionally well too as I witnessed today, Dan made her do most of her routine on her own at one point while he stood back and watched, she was very confident too and when they skated the routine together it was brilliant and there is some solo skating in the routine this week.

You can have it that way, if you want, but the post makes even less sense as a reply to anyone else.


Are you thinking I spend all of my time between posts trying to "come up with these arguments"?


Interesting theory, but most people haven't expressed an opinion on who skated better.


I have no idea where you get that from. It's not anything I think or have said.

Again not something I think or have said.

You don't seem to have any arguments against what I've actually said, only against other things which I haven't.

It's interesting, btw, that Zaraah seems to be presented is this thread as someone who didn't benefit from dance experience. Does anyone really think she would have skated or performed better (or even just as well) without any dance background? I think it was pretty obvious from her skating, from the judges comments, and from reactions that her dance experience helped her, however it was not (of course) the only factor that affected how well she did in the show.