I was replying to this person lmao...
My god, you're looking sillier and sillier, I mean honestly...
You should have fun making a deal out of this week, the required element is toe steps lol

I don't mind "looking a bit silly" when I'm right.

With nothing to back up Kyran's opinion, from him or anyone else, it has no more value than a throwaway comment.

It's interesting, though, that no one seems to look at it at all systematically, for instance by going through all the contestants, estimating how strong they were as dancers when they appeared on the show (merely having gone to stage school is of little worth), and then comparing how well they skated and performed, and long they lasted in the show, against others of similar age, fitness, etc.

She didn't get marked down on her performance. She got some criticism for one aspect of her performance. She may still have gotten marked up -- rather than down -- for performance once all aspects of performance were considered.

Well I personally dont think you're right, and neither do the majority on this thread so... and I do think you look extremely silly... You think you're right over almost everyone else and Kyran, I really can't be bothered. We will have to agree to disgree on this and you also keep changing your tact and going back on yourself, I really don't see the point in continuing this further, particularly against seemingly the only person who did not think Hayley skated well and refuses to see anyones point of view than their own... have it your way love... put your blinkers on again for tomorrow night...

I still think that this is a bit of a storm in a teacup.

Yes, dancers have an advantage on the show (I don't care what Kyran says - methinks there may be some toe(pick)ing the party line here) and yes, part of that advantage may show up, especially early on, in allowing them easier access to toepick moves which look flashy and can contribute to an overall picture that makes them seem better at the actual skating than they are.

However, have any dancers gained any longterm advantage because of being able to perform on toepicks? Have any of them outstayed their welcome longer than a week or two because of it?

I can see that people may have looked at Hayley (and, to a certain extent, Ray) in the first week and thought her better at actual skating than she really showed because of the toepick moves but I don't think you can coast on that for an entire series. Indeed, unless Hayley proves a touch better technically than her fellow celebs, I can see her having difficulties in the vote later on partly because of her dance experience.

Toepick skills have yet to be seen to give any longterm advantage in my view. Hayley easily deserves her place so far and Ray deserved his win, toepick skills or no toepick skills.

Do you often mix relies to different people into one post without anything marking where you switch from one to the other?

Isn't it a step sequence, rather than toe steps only? It will be interesting to see whether Haley takes it as another chance for pick-dancing or whether she does a skating step sequence instead.

No one's given any good reason to think I'm not right.

And no, "Kyran says so" is not a good reason.

Majorities can be wrong. There were many (perhaps even a majority) last year who claimed that Ray didn't get any advantage from his dancing and rollerblading combined.


Except that I haven't.

Yes because most people can tell when reading a post. My post is a general one not actually addressed to you even, i respond to your comments and other things in it... You never mentioned strictly, however the post directly above yours did, so logically most people would conclude that i am refering to the that one for the last sentence of my post yes?...or do you really need things labelled? there is also a change in tone, does that need to be signposted, oh wait i put a wink by it... If you read what other people say on the forum you could deduce the change pretty quickly in fairness.

Seems as you are still in the minority after presenting your arguments, you've clearly done nothing to prove you're in the right here either... lol

I agree that there has been a big deal made out of something very small yes...

The problem is that none of your post made sense as a reply to me, and since your replies to me often read like responses to something I didn't say (and don't even agree with), it's hard to tell which parts are meant as replies to me and which aren't.

Most people at least quote the posts they're replying to, which makes things a lot clearer.


I'm not trying to prove I'm right or to convince anyone. (This is the internet, after all.)

That's fair enough, most of what you say i dont find to be making sense either, you dont seem to listen to arguments anyway, so this is pointless. I only quote something if its in the middle of a long post, or its back a bit and therefore would need to point out what I'm refering to. If you need a quote from a one line post directly above yours talking about something you didnt refer to (strictly) thats fine I will from now on, but in return I suggest you read things more carefully also and dont just presume the whole of a post is to you. You can be in the minority and you seem fine with that, and I'm fine with my part too. As I've said earlier I think we should agree to disagree...

That's nearly all I'm saying, though. I'm surprised there's been so much resistance to it.


I think Ray and now Haley are the only ones who went in for much pick-dancing, so it's hard to say how much long-term difference it makes. If I could stand to re-watch Ray's performances, I'd check how far into the series he still had such routines.

But someone's more impressive routines can have a longer-term effect on how they're perceived.

Does Haley deserve her place? Yes, if that means she deserves to still be in the competition; but it's not so clear she's deserved her 1st place positions on the leaderboard.

I listen to arguments that make sense. There isn't much that can be done with arguments that are addressed at some ridiculous point I didn't even make, or that just refer to Kyran without anything to show how he came to that opinion.


It can't be agree to disagree and keep making points. It has to be one or the other.


Dancers will also know how to do various dance steps, moves, positions, and routines, which can be a big advantage if they can find a cost-effective way to get them onto the ice. A lot of what Haley does in her routines says "dancer" to me. I think she gets much more from it than posture or good arms.

Re fear of the ice -- I agree it's a big obstacle, but I have to wonder what they've been doing for all their weeks of pre-show training if they're still so scared of the ice now.

Just to be clear, I did mean her place in the competition. Her place at the top of the leaderboard may prove more blessing than curse in subsequent weeks I feel. She's got the same potential irritant factor as Ray, she's female (which means she won't get the young girlie vote that Ray did) and she's neither as good as he was nor obviously better than the competition as yet. I'm keeping an open mind; I think she has loads of potential. However, if she keeps scoring above the others when there's no obvious reason, she may suffer later. Do I think Hayley is one of the best? Yes. Do I think she's absolutely the best? There has been no real evidence to show this so far in my view.

I also find what you say pretty ridiculous, based on your own opinion which whilst you are perfectly entitled to, you seem to think is extremely knowledgable, well informed and above other peoples. The fact that you persue this won't mean you're right or make you right in my eyes or most on this forum, you're simply boring people and looking silly, if you wish to continue that's up to you...


Obviously... Therefore I'm not going make anymore, as it's completely pointless with you...

It would be pretty odd for someone to have an opinion they didn't think was right, you know. It makes no sense to have an opinion you think is wrong!

But that doesn't mean thinking you're above other people. Yet again you're trying to stick a view on me that I haven't expressed and don't actually have.

One can be open to their opinion being wrong though. This is the last I'm going to say on this. Argue away with yourself if you must...

Being open doesn't mean changing your mind without reasons that seem good enough.

I could complain about people not being "open" to considering what I've said about getting dance moves, positions, etc onto the ice, you know, if I thought it made sense to see disagreement as a matter of openness.

I think Haley was very irritating in week 1, but much less irritating last week. (She'd certainly toned down the facial expressions.)

I think there is a danger people might start thinking she's a "judge's pet" (for some reason, female contestants get that reaction much more than male ones do), but so far there hasn't been any "overlooking mistakes" incident, and there haven't been any 10s (ok, 6s) to react against.

However, she has the advantage of not being too good-looking.

Well can I add that the cheesy grins are back this week and from both Dan and Hayley.but it is fitting with the routine as its upbeat.

That sounds good. But then ...


... that doesn't.

Why can't people be upbeat without over-exaggerating it?

Aw, poor Hayley! She's a pretty enough girl ... and a good skater, and enjoying being on the show. I don't get why people are so against her, so soon ..

I think it's probably been because she has been top & therefore an easy target.

I'm sure if one of the others tops the board for the next couple of weeks, then they will start to become a target too.

Well here I can speak from experience that you don't have Veri, in that I learnt to skate as an adult and have seen and competed with many others who have learnt to skate as adults and it takes a long, long time to get anywhere near getting over the fear of the ice for most people and no a few months skating, even with as many hours a week as they do is not long enough for many - hence why we see so much dependence on the pros, such slow routines, so few confident looking programmes, so little edge work etc.

It's very different for skaters who learnt as kids (even a little bit as kids seems to make a difference). It doesn't apply to every skater of course, as I know skaters who learnt as kids who are more timid on their return to the ice than I am but in the majority of cases the difference is vast.

Men in general tend to have less fear than the ladies (although there are exceptions - Jeremy!)

Imo, it's because she was so annoying so soon.

(Btw, re her "not being too good-looking", I didn't mean she wasn't good-looking -- the "too" is key. She doesn't have the sort of looks that makes certain segments of the audience keen to find faults.)


It's not because she's been top, imo. Natalie Cassidy was a similarly irritating presence in SCD without being top. But it is partly a matter of thinking she's over-praised and that her wonderfulness is being pushed on us.

I would have thought that having no fear of the ice is something that comes naturally and isn't something that can be taught/learnt. A lot of it will be down to personality & whether you are more of a risk taker generally.

That plays a part of course but it's rare to find an adult who isn't scared of the ice in some way at the start - it is simply scary and so different to anything else (except roller blading really).

And fear of the ice can be overcome to a greater or lesser degree but it does take time. You don't suddenly become' not scared' and then are not scared of anything.
At the start you are scared of just skating at all, then you are scared of going backwards, then you are scared of holding an edge, then you are scared of leaving the ice in a jump. Each time you work to overcome the fear til it feels less scary. And that allows you to move on to the next scary thing. you might be happy to do a move on the ice but scared to do it at speed or to link it to the next move.

A lot of things you need to do on the ice feel counter-intuitive at first and that's scary. But like most scary things you can learn to become less scared through practising and the more you do it the more it becomes familiar and not so scary.