Thanks for that response icedragon. I wonder whether the 2/3 Months that they have training prior to the TV show starting is enough time to overcome any fear or if ultimately it's the ones that have less fear that prevail. Would be interested in your thoughts as you seem knowledgeable.

I take your point, but I'm not talking about them being completely over their fear (or anything near to that).

It's hard to see how skating can be so different from pretty much everything else. Fears naturally decline as an activity becomes more familiar, and we've seen celebs do a number of difficult things that bring out fear of heights, and other fears.

OTOH, it's not hard to see how someone who spent much of their time learning lifts and skating in hold might retain so much fear.

I can't help thinking that they ought to do something different in their training so that they aren't quite so scared and can do a bit more independent skating. Not so they'll be zipping around and jumping over things like Greg Rusedski, but just so they aren't quite so scared and clingy.

I don't think it's fair to the women that they aren't pushed a bit more in that direction. Every year, we have complaints that some of the women can't skate and are just being carried. I think the show can and should do something about that.

As I mentioned above the fear of the ice is not a single fear to be overcome - each type of movement brings new fears of doing what's required to succeed at that move. Plus having the confidence to do a move is one thing, having the confidence to do it at speed, or linked to other moves, or on your own without the pros assistance etc, all take time to learn.

If they spent the whole two months doing nothing but skating about then you wouldn't have a show at the end because there'd be none of the spectacular moves that people want to see. They have to learn to skate in hold since they dancing as couples and that's scary at the start too.

They really only have time to work on the things they are going to use in the routines.

I doubt they spend a lot of time on the lifts in the early training time anyway. That's the easy bit if you have faith in your pro. I can tell you, again from experience, it's a whole different ball game if you are dong it with someone else who is also a low level skater (like UK passport level!). that's why I have immense respect for the female pros - as well as thinking they are completely mad to trust their health to beginner skaters.

Kids and those who learnt as kids tend not to have the fear as they don't really appreciate the consequences of the falls etc and if they continue as adults they already have the confidence so never understand what it's like for adults who learn as adults.

Skating is not different from anythign else scary - the fears can be overcome to an extent with time but I bet if you ask a gymnast if they were scared their first time doing a back flip on the beam they'd say yes and that it took them years to work up to doing it via easier less scary things first.

I said "they ought to do something different in their training so that they aren't quite so scared and can do a bit more independent skating" and that the women should be "pushed a bit more".

And you reply as if I'd said they should do nothing but skating about for two months.



But I'm not talking about them being scared by anything as tricky as a back flip. I'm talking about them being scared just skating around on the ice doing fairly basic things. And not just scared: obviously, visibly scared to the point where they struggle to do it.

Celebs do scary things in reality shows. Have you seen Cirque de Celebrity, or even The Games?

Anyway, most of them are doing pretty well by now, with Emily the obvious exception.

You're being disingenuous here - everyone exaggerates to make a point - most people understand that in a discussion. I explained my point but you appear determined to have the last word and somehow appear to think that proves you are right by doing so. Go ahead have it - it really doesn't matter that much to me.

[quote=Veri;38235188

But I'm not talking about them being scared by anything as tricky as a back flip. I'm talking about them being scared just skating around on the ice doing fairly basic things. And not just scared: obviously, visibly scared to the point where they struggle to do it.

Celebs do scary things in reality shows. Have you seen Cirque de Celebrity, or even The Games?

Anyway, most of them are doing pretty well by now, with Emily the obvious exception.[/QUOTE]

And while we are being pedantic you know quite well I'm not talking about them doing a back flip on the ice. I'm making a comparison with another sport where there are new fears to be overcome at every stage, just like in skating. They are learning a lot of new skills in a very short time (most people take over a year to do skate UK and wouldn't even dream of doing the type of lifts they are doing for several years and test levels after).

Their training is compressed but even so there is only so much skating one can do in a day and so much one can take in. And as in anything, some are better than others at dealing with their fears and some aren't so afraid in the first place. This was Chris' big advantage having done some ice hockey as a kid- he wasn't afraid of the ice, of going fast on the ice and turning at speed on the ice because he was used to i,t albeit on slightly different blades. This made the others look worse by comparison despite the fact most of them were better than the winner of the first series. (This bit is more to answere Tiger rose than you Veri!). I guess sportspeople may have an advantage there in being more used to pushing their bodies to the limits and dealing with injuries and knowing how to fall as safely as possible. Sharron for example may not be very graceful but actually her skating is pretty good - she did a fab twizzle (360 turn) probably the best of the night.

You are also reckoning without the fear of performance which strikes when you go out in front of an audience and judges. I don't know whether you tested/competed in your ice skating exploits Veri and again usually kids don't suffer from it as much as adults but it is very difficult to take what you can do in training to the performance arena. Legs do go to jelly and knees stiffen. I'd imagine that actors/ performers may in general have some advantage her and certainly Ray last year would have had the experience of dance competitions so would be more used to it. It 's a fear like the others that lessens with exposure and practice.

She'll win by a nose I think.

You respond as if I said something very different than I did, and when I point that out, you start making personal accusations.

I'm not a mind-reader, you know. I can't tell what "point" someone is secretly making behind an absurd exaggeration.


Again you avoid addressing what I actually said. I didn't say a backflip on ice. I was referring to your comparison and indicating that I wasn't talking about anything that tricky.

Instead, I'm talking about them being scared just skating around on the ice doing fairly basic things. And not just scared: obviously, visibly scared to the point where they struggle to do it.

I don't think they are learning so many new skills in so short a time. They have something like 6 weeks of training before the show even starts, and the weaker ones especially don't do a large number of different things in their first routines.

Re lifts, you said in your previous message "I doubt they spend a lot of time on the lifts in the early training time anyway. That's the easy bit if you have faith in your pro." And we saw that this week Daniella hardly practiced her big lift at all.

Some of them seem to spend a lot more of their time on the lifts (especially when lifts make up a lot more of their routines), but in any case there must be some room to vary their training so that the ones who remain so frightened for so long are a bit less so.

Meanwile, I'm surprised that Hayley got such high marks and high praise for her routine. There was quite a bit of messy stuff in it that could have been hammered at least on "performance" grounds.

My slight exaggeration was not absurd - I'm not accusing you - I said how it appeared to me. And I explained my point quite clearly - nothing secret about it. I leave it to any readers (who haven't got bored of this by now) to make up their own minds on this one!

I didn't say a backflip on ice either but you appeared to take it that I did by referring to one in the context of the show. You appear to enjoy deconstructing the semantics of a passing thought and to tell others that what they've said isn't right because what you've said is. Sorry, it doesn't work like that.

You can't possibly know unless you are at the training rinks for the same amount of time they are, whether they spend all their time on lifts or not. I would think not as indeed Daniella showed this week.

You may think 6 weeks is plenty of time to learn to skate - I, from experience of learning to skate as an adult say it is not a long time and I've explained all that above but it apparently doesn't fit your theory or chosen viewpoint.

The first skate UK course covers little more than gliding forwards (not even yet stroking) and and learning how to get up from a fall and that is given over a period of about 6 weeks. Yes obviously their training is more intensive but it allows little time for practice which is where the confidence begins to grow.

Learning a routine is not that easy either so they actually have very little time to improve their skills during the actual run of the show.

Anyway I'm sure you'll have fun picking apart my reply to tell me things I have (or sometimes haven't) said are wrong etc etc. but to be honest if you were an adult who had learned to skate as an adult as the DOI contestants (mostly) are, then I'd think your viewpoint on how long it should take them had more validity. You aren't and therefore I don't think it does.

Personally I'm quite impressed they manage to get them to look so good in such a short time but working with a pro partner makes a huge difference and hence why I have more regard for those who skate well on their own whatever part of the blade they use to do it.

It was absurd -- and was not slight -- compared to what I said.


"You're being disingenuous here" is accusing me. The part behind "appear" was accusing me too. You've continued such accusations in this post.


So what is the unexaggerated version of "If they spent the whole two months doing nothing but skating about", and where did you post it?


I referred to in the the context of your comparison.


I didn't say they spent all their time on lifts. But spending a lot of time on lifts would fit with their skating difficulties and also with the content of the routines that have little (or no) skating and spend most of the time on lifts.

Daniella's routine had a lot of skating in it, and we could see she spent a lot of time on the skating. Is there anything that shows Emily, for example, has been spending so large a proportion of her time on skating?

Even if the only way to get Emily and other weak skaters to do more skating practice was to put more skating in their routines, then that could be done.

I just don't like seeing contestants' chances suffer because they seem to be doing "no" skating or to "just" being carried or held up by their partner. Surely it must be possible to make some change there, and I don't understand why anyone would resist the idea so strongly.


Most of the celebs manage to get far enough in the 6 weeks.


How do you know it allows little time for practice? Have you seen their training, for example? Any solid evidence here would be helpful, and appreciated.


You aren't going only by your own experience but also by what you've seen other do. I have also seen adults learn to skate as adults. But I say again: I don't like seeing contestants' chances suffer because they seem to be doing "no" skating or to "just" being carried or held up by their partner; and surely it must be possible to make some change there, so that the weaker skaters are a bit less weak and frightened.

You seem to think it isn't possible.

Although she is obviously talented, I find her performances a little bit stageschool whereas Mikey has a naturalness about his performances which I find very appealing

I'm sorry if you think disingenuous was an accusation. It was a description of how you were using my argument in a less than straightforward way - picking at details of what I said that weren't that important and using that to cast doubt on the essence of the post.

There's little point in continuing this as you still appear intent on picking apart every possible nuance of anything I say. Taking things that suit you literally and ignoring those that don't. You obviously don't agree with me and that's your prerogative, while I am happy I know what I mean and I'm sure others can draw their own conclusions. You're reading into my posts things that are not there and ignoring some perfectly pertinent points that are.

You also appear confused by almost everything, judging by the regular appearance of the confused smiley so not sure I can help you much!

One point - yes I have seen (some of ) them train (and the guy who had two goes after breaking his leg - I saw him practising before his second go round and I'd say his basics were fairly weak despite two goes at the basic training and who knows how much practice in between). Not constantly of course. I also know how long it takes adult competitors to prepare a programme having competed myself and been to a great many adult competitions over the years. It can take several hours to get the basic choreography and many many hours of runthroughs to get it to look good. Most people have one programme a year that they take to many comps - not one programme a week!

Yes their programmes are short and yes they have a pro but because they have to learn the programme and get the moves and the arms and the dancing bits there is little time to do much basic training and each move learnt needs hours of practice - hence why their turns when they do them tend to be snatched, there is much toe-pushing and 'stepping' rather than 'stroking' and learning to bend the knees anywhere near enough does not come naturally to most adults (hence why Mikey looks good - he has soft knees - a huge asset)

I think you are possibly looking at it backwards though and one reason they give weaker skaters (of girls) more lifts is because they don't look good actually doing much skating. The weaker guys can get more 'on the spot' choreography where the pro dances round them and we've seen plenty of that (not so much this series). Of course some of the stronger girls look good in lifts too and since the show is for 'show' rather than serious competition that's what they get too.

There's not a lot of point in them concentrating on the basic skating, when they need show routines that look good on TV. The general public know little about the technicalities of skating so can't tell when a skater is using an edge or what turn is harder than another and on TV it is hard to see what speed they are going at, so they teach them enough to provide a spectacle and no, 6 weeks is not long enough for most adults to get over their fear or to look strong skating. Several years is not long enough for many in the real world, so I think they do pretty well considering.

Only a few celebs have looked good from the start (after their basic training) - Chris because he could skate already and had no fear of the ice and Ray who had done roller blading which translates fairly well to ice and high level competitive dance. Can't offhand remember any others.

Doesn't matter much what you do but you it's pretty hard to find any (let alone a group of) celebs who can match that in 6 weeks unless they have the same type of prior experience, no matter what type of training you give them.

Presumably you have watched them train, else why would you be claiming to know better. You are welcome to believe in your alternative world view. I'll stick to mine. And please this time don't pick apart every sentence - it takes the fun out of any discussion.

Can I just say how much I enjoyed this post, even if it wasn't directed at myself. I never took the time to think about how difficult it is to learn such a skill, and how well each of these celebrities are actually doing by learning a new routine each week. I now think that the actual ice skating, the lifts (fear of falling and trust) and the performance are very different and difficult things that need to be combined. Maybe we need to be a bit toleranter with all the contestants.