Bought some goldfish yesterday.
In a 21L tank with a filter.

The water was very clear at first but seems to have gone a bit cloudy already!

I have attached the filter correctly into the holder and it is attached by suckers to the side of the tank.

It has water covering just over half of the filter (as shown in diagram that came with it) and at the back of the filter the water pumps back out again through 2 small holes which is above the water level and pours back in.

We have only fed them once as advised.
Added the 2 little ingredients provided (water conditioner & supplement) and ran the filter for a while before adding fish.


Anyone have any advice as to why the water looks a little cloudy already?

Oh gosh. Where do I begin?

21lt is too small for one goldfish let alone 'some'. They are very dirty fish that can grow over 12" in the right environment.

How many goldfish & which type? From that we might be able to calculate the size of tank and filters you'll need.

You haven't cycled the tank. Look up 'Nitrogen Cycle' on Google. Basically, fish produce ammonia. This feeds bacteria in the filter which break it down to nitrite and then to nitrate. However, a new tank has no bacteria colony so needs to build one up. This is best achieved by a fishless cycle - adding ammonia to an fishless tank and testing the water until nitrites and then nitrates are seen and the ammonia and nitrite levels drop to zero. This process takes roughly six weeks, usually a little quicker if you can get some used filter media or gravel from an established tank.

This is important as both ammonia and nitrite are poison to the fish, buring their gills.

New fish introduced to a tank are often stressed and may not eat. Optimally, they should have been gradually acclimatised to the tank and the tank light left off.

What are you feeding them?

Your tank could be cloudy due to gravel insufficiently washed before use, uneaten food, cloudy tap water. It is unlikely to be bacterial bloom this early.

Keep the filter running, buy a testing kit, buy a gravel pump, and get ready for almost daily partial water changes (using treated water) until you buy a sufficiently large tank.

I really dispare of pet shops selling these kind of set ups!!!

21lt coldwater would be OK for a small group of White Cloud Mountain Minnows. Just.

I'll look into the gravel pump.

Was prepared to do a 50% water change regularly.

They are 3 Orandos and are very tiny at the mo but quite happy to get a bigger tank at some point.

The box says up to 6! Didn't think that sounded right.
They also sold tanks half of the size!!!

They are eating fine.
I'm feeding them nutra flakes.

I haven't had a goldfish for years (he lasted about 6/7 years).

Is the filter bit right where the water runs back in from above the water level or should I push it down a bit more?

Which make and model filter is it?

Most in tank filters have an inlet below the surface and the outlet above water level as the returning water hitting the water surface allows better aeration.

Sorry, should have added you'll be wanting 150lt tank minimum with some heavy duty filtration (if Kelly or RubusRu don't beat me to it I'll look up the lt per hour for that)

Try to get a better food aswell. Flakes don't keep long before loosing goodness, they leach their goodness into the water when you feed and it encourages the fish to surface feed (not good). Get some pellets/granules and supplement with brine shrimp, blood worm etc and occationally fresh veg (cucumber, lettuce, corgette all good). Good idea to have some plants in there too (might help with keeping nitates down if healthy, but add to the ammonia load if they die (as does over feeding) )

Definately get a water testing kit - ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph.

The gravel pump sucks the poop and left over food from the bottom of the tank before it breaks down completely - best way to remove water for a water change.

poor goldies, these little tanks should be clearly labelled not for goldfish no offence at the OP, just a little rant

i back up everything said so far, you need to upgrade, and do it fast. those little orandas grow large, and it doesnt take long for them to become stunted.

if this link works...hopefully...this is a full grown oranda, now picture this in your tank

http://media.photobucket.com/image/l...ggoldfish2.jpg

you need around a 45-50 gallon tank, with filtration rated at around double the tank size you have. i run a fluval fx5, 2 fluval 4+ and a fluval 3+ on my 150 gallon (680 liter) goldfish tank. i still need to carry out 60-80% or thereabouts partial water changes with gravel vacs every weekend to keep nitrates low (i am overstocked with 13 fancy goldfish and 1 common in this tank though hence the huge water changes needed every week!)

oh and just to add, never feed a fancy goldfish flake foods. flakes lose their vitamins very quickly on contact with the water, and also they encourage feedign from the surface, which in fancy egg bodied fish can cause swim bladder issues.

i feed saki-hikari fancy goldfish sinking mini pellets or hikari lionhead sinking pellets.

also, you will be needing to feed cooked, shelled peas at least once or twice a week, cut them up a little if they are too big for your little fish to eat. this is to push through any gases that they may have in their digestive tract and it does fancies the world of good. every single goldfish i have had, both fancy and common, love peas

make sure they get a good quality diet, with different things now and again. i feed mine pellets once a day in the morning, and in the evening i feed either pellets again or one of -brine shrimp/daphnia/blood worm/peas/cucumber/orange segments every other day instead of their pellets in the evening.

get some live plants in there too, they help with water quality between changes, especially as you are cycling, and the goldies will love to snack on them between feeds

while cycling, you will most likely need to be doing daily partial water changes. only feed once every other day to ensure the ammonia stays as low as possible while you are cycling. the fish will be fine with this.

you really should invest in a quality liquid drop test kit such as the api master test, which gives you ammonia/nitrite/nitrate/p.h for around £20. its literally a life saver for your fish.

if when you test you see ammonia or nitrites you need to do a partial water change to dilute, only when you read nitrates when you do the nitrate test will you be cycled. you can shorten this period of time (up to 8 weeks) by getting hold of some seeded gravel or filter media from an established tank (maybe a friend has one) and putting it straight into your tank. you are aiming for the following readings-ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate <40ppm. you will need to do weekly/fortnightly water changes once you are cycled to keep nitrates under 40ppm, preferably under 20 ppm but its safe for fish up to 40ppm.

always use dechlorinator as the tap water without being treated will kill off all your bacteria and leave you with an uncycled tank again and back at square 1.

my largest oranda is a female blue, and she is now reaching 7 inches. i cant imagine having even just her in a 21ltr tank and shes nowhere near full grown. as stressmonkey said, that tank is only really suitable for a couple of white cloud minnows or a betta fish or a few small tetras if you add a heater too.

i hope you can upgrade soon

when oh when will shops stop selling these crap tanks then sell bloody fish to go in them. And even on the same day. Its cruel and poor goldfish suffer. OP never go back to the shop for anything. They aren't interested in you or their livestocks welfare. Its all about money for them. Whereabouts are you? Maybe someone on here can recommend a good LFS for you.

I found this 'tank' on amazon when I was looking for a new one, and even with my limited (though growing) knowledge of fish keeping I just don't know how people can even have the nerve to sell things like it. Its just awful.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Goldfish-Sta...929487&sr=8-17

I can't offer any help, threecheeses, except to say that you've got some very clever fish experts helping you out and that I hope your 3 fish live long and happy lives

the last review is mine on that one, did it ages ago, it keeps me from getting bored, i trawl amazon for cruel tanks and bowls and leave bad reviews. if it puts off even 1 potential buyer then its done its job

what about the photo frame ones! Gave the bloke at dobbies a mouthful about their display one. He agreed but only worked there. Was there on sunday and had to have a word with a stupid woman to get her brats under control. There's a big tank with about 6 parrots in it and she was letting them bang the tank. They were so scared and hiding and freaking. Grrrr

I keep tropicals mainly but my daughter has 5 goldfish in an 18" tank. One's an ordinary orange goldfish, 8 inches long now and 9 years old. We recently bought the others for company for it, 2 canary yellow goldfish and 2 redcaps so they're only small. The water's always crystal clear and I have an internal Fluval 2 filter.

You can keep goldfish in smallish tanks with good filtration but they just won't grow as big as if they're in a pond or big tank. Don't overfeed them.

i'm afraid i disagree. 5 goldfish and one at 7 inches is far too much for an 18" tank. Its false that fish only grow to the size of their tank. Can't you get a bigger tank? I'm sure others will agree with me. Even a fluval 2 isn't powerful enough to cope with all their waste. Do you test the water weekly? Do part water changes? Goldfish make much more waste than tropicals.

Yes and yes. All parameters are perfect. I have 2 tropical tank so my wife won't let us have any more tanks.

ah. In my house its me that wants a bigger tank. I only have 4 at the moment . The hubby says no but i'll just go and get one anyway lol.

The only reason they won't grow as big is because their growth stunts - their outsides stop growing, but their insides don't, generally resulting in some form of organ failure, spinal problems, and unhappy fish which die.

(I'm learning )

i'm pretty sure you.re correct.

what a depressing thought, all those poor fish crammed into a tiny tank like that

its called stunting by the way. the fish release hormones into the water which prevents growth in all the fish in the tank. the more fish, the more hormones, the greater the stunting. their external body slows and stops growing, their internal organs continue to grow at a steady rate. eventually the fish will die a slow death through its own body causing organ failure. cruelty. simple as. (would you house a dog in a cage? a horse in a cupboard? a hamster in a sandwich tub? no because its cruel and the animal will lead a sad life)

you cannot, and should not, ever keep goldfish in small tanks. or any fish that will grow large (oscars/bala sharks/common plecos/tinfoil barbs etc). a fish tank should be able to accomodate all inhabitants at their maximum adult size, even if it does look empty at the start and the fish gentics maybe wont even allow the fish to grow that big. theres surviving and thriving, your goldfish are surviving...for now

the tank you have your goldfish in is way too small. your common goldfish should reach between 12-18 inches, and should be nearing that now at their age. your fancy goldfish should reach between 8-10 inches. i cannot believe you can look into an 18 inch tank with an 8 inch goldfish in it and think 'il buy some more' 1 flick of its tail and itl be over the other side of the tank, what a miserable life.

just because your water is crystal clear doesnt mean its good quality. it means your fluval is doing a good job of removing particles from the water column.

saying dont overfeed them is an obvious one anyway, you should never overfeed any fish, it leads to higher nitrates (or ammonia and nitrites in an uncycled tank) in a tank that small i hope you dont feed every day.

my hospital tank is 18 gallons, and i only ever use it in an absolute emergency, or for QT when a new fish arrives. i put a 3" fancy goldfish in it and it looks stuffed full and the goldfish is obviously unhappy.

i want to say sorry for the rant but im not. do not post up poor information as it will lead to others possibly chancing it and putting more poor fish through the cruelty of stunting and premature death

an absolute minimum (if you want happy healthy goldfish that grow to their full potential) for a fancy goldfish pair (they are social creatures and like company of their own kind) is 25-30 gallons, for a pair of commons or comets you need around double that, so 55-60 gallons. you will need filtration rated at least double the size of your tank too as they are very messy fish, with poor digestive tracts which mean they poop for england. you will need to do gravel vacs and water changes every 7-14 days.


im wondering if you test the water, and if so what are you ammonia,nitrite and nitrate readings. if it shows no nitrates or low nitrates, i suggest you go and buy yourself a new test kit, not strips, a liquid test kit and do the test again.

:yawn: it seems a never ending battle to help people understand how to properly care for their wetpets. i can now see why a different member on this forum a while back told me its a useless waste of time trying to help people on here. i guess if i manage to help just 1 owner change their pets life then its worth it

*climbs off high horse for a little while*

so rehome your common goldfish in spring to someone with a pond, rehome your fancy goldfish to someone with a decent sized tank, and buy your daughter some small coldwater fish such as white clouds and show her how to properly care for her pets

There is no veterinary evidence to support fishes internal organs growing whilst their frame does not. That is just nonsense.

There are any number of other things that can happen in inadequate sized tanks, but organs bursting through their skin is not one of them.

the organs dont burst through the skin,have never seen or heard of that anyway. they fail due to compression in the body. the same as the digestive tract in fancy goldfish,they are bred to be egg shaped and their bodies stop growing instead of becoming elongated as they should be naturally so their digestive tract is compressed to unnatural shapes inside their deformed bodies meaning they tend to be prone to buoyancy issues from floating foods etc, not sure on the exact science behind it mind you. also, in fish in smaller tanks where they cant swim properly they suffer muscle wastage.

i have been trying to research this, and it does seem there may be a chance of it not being completely true. however i have found the following snipet-

I can understand your skepticism, but from what I'm seen (and I majored in biology in college, so I do have some reasonable background), I believe this claim is accurate.

To see an example of one of the necropsy photos, I'll offer this link (very graphic dissection photo, do not click if squeamish) http://thegab.org/Ar...witchy0703g.jpg

The cranial lobe of the swim bladder is a good size and fully inflated, the caudal lobe is practically a stump. When this necropsy was done, this fish had not grown noticeably at all, while his siblings had doubled in size (and are still both around 2 years later). In this case, that observation isn't the simple discrepancy of the organs looking different post-mortem. This kind of difference is what I'm talking about and is representative of what I've seen in necropsies of other stunted fish - it is very different from what I've seen when I've looked at higher end goldfish that weren't undersized.

That said, there are different aspects to why a goldfish might be undersized. If the fish isn't fed well, for example, sure, it is reasonable to assume that all growth will be restricted, and the fish will be small. The body and the internal organs will all develop too slowly. Given the "conventional wisdom" about goldfish keeping on some sites, that isn't surprising that it happens. And there is a fair amount of research in various places that calorie restriction can extend life in many animal species, possibly at a cost to the quality of life.

On the other hand, you have the influence of growth inhibiting hormones. In a natural environment, these may restrict growth, but not nearly as severely as they do in the tiny water volumes of aquarium-kept fish. In a stunted fish of this type, for example, you'll see the effects externally even if you can't see the effects on the organs. The size of the eye in proportion to the head is wrong, because the eye keeps growing when the body and head don't. If you compare young fish from a high end breeder, kept in spacious, optimal growth conditions to a batch of cheap fish at your local pet mega-chain store, you can learn to see a distinct difference in the ratio of eye size to head size. This kind of differential growth rate does happen in stunted goldfish, where some body parts keep growing and others don't, and you don't have to go as far as looking at the internal organs to see it.

so maybe it is, and maybe it isnt true. i dont know for sure. i do know that all goldfish i have known (including my own before i knew better) that have been housed in small aquariums, even with water changes, gravel vacs, quality diet etc, have died early deaths, some in less than a year, some a few years down the line. either way, since i have been keeping goldfish in adequate sized tanks, i havent lost a single one. i have no disease which used to break out regularly in my smaller tanks a couple of years back, and the fish are seemingly much happier (they spawn often enough )

you can keep a dog in a 3ft x2ft cage for its whole life, will the dog be happy, no, will it live, yes. why not just do your best to give the fish a chance to live a decent long happy life rather than drop it into a bowl of water and hope for the best

surely even if we dont know for sure if stunting causes painful premature deaths for fish, its best to not take the chance with an animals life than carry on regardless.

many people have kept fish in small containers/aquariums and had them live a few years. personally im not happy with keeping fish capable of reaching large sizes in a small inaqdequate tanks, regardless of filtration. a friend of mine has a comet in a 2.5 gallon tank, all it does is sit on the bottom and occassionally swim up and down the back of the tank. what a damn awful life that poor creature has, it will never know what it is like to swim fast and dart around

i think the best thing ive read so far is 'if the organs stunting inside the body is a myth, at least it may put off individuals considering housing a goldfish in a totally inappropriate tank or bowl subjecting that animal to terrible shortened life'

as i understand it, a goldfish (or any fish for that matter) in a small volume of water which it cannot grow to its full potential will become stunted. what issues this throws up during the fishes life can vary, i guess some people are lucky in the fact their little fish, remains little, and still lives a few years.

i personally want my fish to live as long as possible and will put all my effort into creating a happy healthy environment for them to live in.

i will carry on my mission of trying to help poor fish in bad situations live out their lives in the best way possible (can you tell i have far too much time on my hands )

crikey! Say what you think kelly lol. Actually i think you've said everything i wanted to but much better. I think goldfish are so abused. They are sold cheap and seen as disposable pets. I always get shocked when i see what we humans keep them in and when i see what we do to them. Bubble eyes upset me so much.

sorry if it came across as harsh, but its what i feel and think, and a forum is a place to express you own opinions-so i did

goldfish, or fish in general, seem to be the most openly abused pets available. it comes to something when people say things such as 'oh it looked sick so i flushed it down the loo' would you flush a hamster or gerbil that looked a little poorly

i just dont understand how people can not see them as living breathing feeling creatures. mine will come to the top of my tank and brush against my hand if i put my hand in there,my biggest calico fantail will even put her head out of the water when i have the lid open and i can touch her without her swimming away, they swim to me if i walk from side of the tank to the other, they understand and can learn all sorts of tricks, and they have a fantastic memory.

my 3 day old goldfish fry already swim to my finger when i am sorting them out, im hoping for them to become super friendly as adults

well done at the fry . My goldfish have never spawned so not as happy as yours. My tropicals are always trying though lol. Got 3 tanks of them and the cichlids are the worst. My parrot and green terror are the worst culprits.

my goldies are now spawning every 2 weeks, ive saved 3 fry from their last spawn but until either these 3 have grown, or if they dont make it, il be leaving all eggs in the tank for the fish to enjoy caviar-theres only so many babies i can take care of, and im doing water changes on the fry 3 times a day

i love green terrors, they are great looking fish hope some of your fry make it