Hmm. What I was trying to say was that the skater's speed over the ice isn't dictated by the pace of the music. A skater might be making slow, graceful motions with their body while moving quite quickly relative to the ice. Or, think of a spiral, for example, when the skater is just holding a position; they still have to be moving over the ice fast enough that they cover a long distance.

She wouldn't have been miles ahead.

If he had given her 4 instead of 3, he could've given someone else 3.5 instead of an unnecessarily low 2.5, for example.

I think most of his marking was too low tonight, and as a result of marking the best dancer so low, he couldn't separate the mid-pack dancers and had to give them all the same mark.

Agree with you here Veri. Slow music does not dictate slow skating. You can skate with power to a slow piece and cover a vast distance at speed. That's what shows a good skater - they can use power and edges to go with music fast or slow and not think slow music has to equal slow skating.

True, but someone clearly told them to skate from A to B slowly and not to go from A to F speedily. It could have had different choregraphy but it didn't. You can't blame the skaters for doing what T and D told them to do. If Nicky doesn't like the choregraphy he should say so and put the blame where it belongs. If T and D don't like being second guessed by someone who would probably produce people skating a bit faster round and round in circles doing nothing, they should sack Nicky.

I totally agree, Hayley definitely deserved more, he gave 3 to somebody else who was not as good as Hayley, so it seemed way off the mark! I think that Hayley was worth at least 3.5, I guessed that she would get 4s which she did from the others, other than the one 4.5!

Hayley was definitely the best tonight!

I didn't think she was the best dancer - but I agree on the rest. He tried to give the first dancer an average mark to give him scope to go up and down, but unfortunately he scored Hayley too low. Then he had to fit everyone else in - as he said at one point 'I think I'll mark everyone low tonight'.

The stupid thing is he's not new to this. He should know how to mark from the off by now.

I disliked the way she was while performing, and I disliked the gushing from the judges. Before the show started, I had no opinion on Hayley and I disliked Daniella; but I liked the way Daniella was on DOI, and at present she's one of my favourites. Hayley was a lot less irritating this week; maybe I'll end up liking her.

The 3 won't do her place in the leaderboard any harm unless its low compared to other marks from the same judge.


But that doesn't hurt the ones he gave a higher mark; it just means he didn't distinguish among the ones her marked the same. Which doesn't necessarily mean he had less effect on the placings than other judges did. It would be necessary to look at things in more detail to tell. There was a time in the most recent SCD, for example, when there were complaints about Bruno giving so many of them 5, but his marks were still the deciding factor in more cases than judges whose marks looked like they'd be more influential.

Is there a thread that has all the marks in a convenient form?

You're assuming she could have gone from A to B more quickly, so that it's all down to someone telling her not to.


If you're going to think that way, you should complain about a lot of things the judges say. I agree that there shouldn't be this sort of difference between the judges and the choreographers in a show like this, but there is, and there has been for a long time.

Besides, it's perfectly legitimate for a judge to say what they thought was lacking a routine. I don't think they should have to word what they say carefully so that they're always clearly indicating who really deserves the blame. Skaters normally suffer because of defects in their choreography -- they're the ones being marked, not their coaches or choreographers.

I think they may have told them to go from A to B but I doubt they told them to do it slowly. They may not be able to do it fast but it sure would not be the intention to deliberately skate slower than necessary. It takes more skill to do it with power and edges though.
That's what ice dance is all about. Two couples can do exactly the same pattern to the same tempo music but one will cover much more ice because they skate with more power and deeper edges and therefore faster but get from A to B in the same time.

I agree, but I think thenetworkbabe may have meant for A and B to be places on the ice so that the amount of ice covered (for a given pattern that goes from A to B) would be fixed. (Ie, always the same, because it's in effect the distance along the curve they follow. Then if you move faster, you get to B sooner.)

Compulsory dance has fixed places on the ice you have to go to but you can still vary the speed you skate at to get there. You can go slowly in a straight line or faster on a curve. The deeper the curve the faster you need to go but A and B don't move.

It would be pretty unusual for any ice choreographer to tell someone they must reach a fixed a spot and must go slowly to get there.

Yes, but then you're not following the same route. (Would you consider it "exactly the same pattern"?)

If we take the "choreography" as specifying where A and B are and what you do while getting from A to B, then if you go faster, you get there sooner.

I understand that it's not that simple. You can't just go faster, without changing anything else, and that movement on ice can work differently than on other surfaces, but I think that was the idea.

(I'm reminded, for some reason, of what happens in orbit. If you fire your engine to go forward, it may seem that would make you move faster in that direction, but instead you make the orbit larger so that you're moving slower.)

I think that may be the important point.

I imagine they do tell them to go from A to B at a set speed because they want the next move to start in the right place and they want to end up in particular places at the right time (eg people doing the compulsory move tonight right in front of the judges) Its presumably designed so things happen where cameras can see too? I don't think they just choregraph it by saying go there and do that move and there and do that one either - it looks as if its done in minute detail with T and D working it out step by step and posture by posture. If they have also practiced the acting and the arm movements with them to fit the foot movements there's no scope to improvise left. Inded it would look horrible as you couldn't have feet and arms and the acting and the music all going at different speeds or some romantic dance to romantic music whipping around the floor?

That starts well, but it looks like it ends up saying romantic dance to romantic music shouldn't move quickly over the ice (or it would look horrible). But good skaters often will be moving rapidly even when doing something romantic.

when moving very quickly good skaters look like they are gliding and you actually don't notice they are going so fast, it looks effortless. You don't skate slowly to a slow piece you skate quickly more subtley. Good ones can get real power on the ice without looking like they're trying. Obviously doi isn't to a fantastic level but some of them still move quite speedily. The likes of Ray, Clare and Suzanne could get across the ice quite quickly but it looked slower on tv cos it didn't look like they were trying. Chris and kyran also skate very quickly but they aren't as graceful so you can tell they're going quite fast. Ray and chris are probably the quickest.

The evidence available just shows T and D leading them through the moves at speed X though. There's no sign of an idea starting at one speed and being cut down to another and I wonder if there is time for trial and error? They then turn up and perform on the show at speed X. They don't tell us the reason why its X and not faster either way. I agree its probably a bit to do with what they can do as well as the T and D view of what they should do to look good but there's no way of telling what determines it. There's also a problem the other way with some people being given more to do than they can and others being given something within their capacity.

There's a difference between competition outside and on DOI in that the choregrapher outside DOI is a part of the team and is responsible for the team dance.thye even have to appear on camera as the mark is awarded. They are inherently criticised all the time if the act has too little artistic merit or is too difficult. Same on SCD where the pro is to blame for the choregraphy and the only other person not in the team who might be blamed is the producer who decided the music. On DOI, you have the people who run the show deciding whats in everyone's dance and only the dancers getting panned by the judges if it was dull or too hard or just a bad idea. The judges have got near to pointing out that some people are given too much or too little and some moves were bad ideas - but its usually the celeb who gets the blame. Emily tonight was an interesting example. The VT and the compulsory move suggested she is OK over the ice but she was choregraphed into being carried around seconds into the performance in the same lift we have seen before - that wasn't because she couldn't do much else, it was because someone thought it looked good and filled up the time.

I agree its a long running problem that the judges are marking the choregraphers but the answer to that is to allow for it as best you can. You mark what was too hard as being hard and what was poor choregraphy more on its performance. If its too easy or too hard to give a decent mark too you fudge the mark and say it was done very well or very hard and have a word with the choregraphers. What you don't do is to criticise the poor sap who has been given something too easy or too hard for lack of ambition or failing to do the too difficult.

The speed and what moves are done will be determined by what the skaters are capable of. If a skater can move fast then they will do the move at a faster speed.

The whole point of ice choreography is not to say move here to here at x speed but goes more like 'we'll put a turn in here and Ok lets see where that takes you to on the ice (skater does it). Right after that we'll put in this lift, so we need to get you round the corner- how far can you get in two crossovers? (skaters try it out) right that puts you here and if you can put a bit more power in then we could do this move here otherwise maybe we'll add a turn etc etc. As the skaters practice and get better and /or faster then the choreography is adjusted to accommodate that so they end up in time with the music.

Actually you are crediting the skaters with more skill than they have if you think the choreographer dictates the speed across the ice. If they can skate fast then they will be given moves at that speed that can look slow (glides and spirals can be done slow or fast and look just as graceful - in fact more graceful done with more speed)

Where the choreography is to blame is in the number of lifts they are given but speed across the ice is down to the skaters abilities so is a legitimate target for criticism.

Going back to the question of Nicky's scoring, don't the judges see the dress rehearsal? If so, then he should have had an idea of what to expect from each routine - barring any mistakes or anything like that - and should have known that he wouldn't be unjustified in giving Hayley a slightly higher score than he did.

Some compulsory dance is also known as 'set pattern' dance so yes you can do the same pattern at different speeds while retaining pattern and music tempo It will still have the turn in the same corner and the swings in the same place but couples can do them by skating faster with deeper edges and more power and still be totally in time with the music and stay on pattern.

My point is that that is how ice choreography works, rather than saying' skate slowly to get to point b at this time via this straight line'. For free dances, the choreography is easily adapted to the skater's abilities so I don't believe anyone is told to 'skate slowly as you must follow this line and get there in two seconds' or whatever. That doesn't work and the DOI skaters don't have the skills to make it work.

They plan where they want the major elements and what they put in on the way depends on what the skaters can do and how fast and strongly they can skate and how deep an edge they can hold.

There's also a difference between moves being fast because they are 'snatched' because the skater can't do it well and being done powerfully with control which may appear slower but is better (applies more to turns and steps which require edge control)

I want to make sure I understand what you mean by "same pattern".

When you said "you can go slowly in a straight line or faster on a curve" from A to B (where A and B are points on the ice), are the line and curve versions the same pattern, even though one's a straight line and the other's a curve, or are they different patterns?

You said "two couples can do exactly the same pattern to the same tempo music but one will cover much more ice because they skate with more power and deeper edges and therefore faster but get from A to B in the same time".

Suppose there's an imaginary line drawn on the ice showing the "path" the skaters followed as they skated their routine, like tracing where they'd been on the ice. Suppose we do that for the couple that did the pattern slower, take a picture, and then do it again for the couple that did it faster, and take another picture. If we put those two pictures one on top of the other, would their lines be right on top of each other, or would the "drawing" in the faster one be larger (thus covering more ice)?

Ok imagine a set pattern being a set pattern of steps/turns.

So maybe xover, xover, step forward, inside 3turn, change foot, step to forward, mohawk for instance. Imagine that sequence takes up the length of the ice rink and 12 seconds of music and the inside 3 should be near middle of long side and the mohawk goes round the corner.

You have a strong powerful skater and a weak timid skater. Both have to do the same steps and the same timings. The strong skater will use deep edges to make their crossovers curvier and their edges curvier and the entrance and exit edges of the the 3 turn curvier.

Both will have completed the same pattern with same elements in the same time and start and end up at exactly the same spots on the ice and will have travelled the length of the rink.

The tracings left on the ice will be much straighter for the weak slow skater and much curvier for the strong fast skater but the pattern, steps, elements and timing are the same.

The better skaters will be able to hold edges and do the curvier version of the pattern. Hence why if a choreographer says do x at A and Y at B the ideal is to skate as fast as possible between the two using the edges to accommodate the speed. Alternatively if they want a straight line glide then the choreographer will adjust A and B rather than say skate slower.

Love your posts, icedragon. Really interesting!

Thanks!

I'm afraid I could talk ice skating all day......and night.....and the next day.......ad infinitum

Apologies - thought of an interesting fact that ties in with above posts.

Ice skating choreography is done in terms of edges so to get from A to B in say 4 beats of music you might do a right forward outside (RFO) edge for 2 beats followed by a left forward inside edge (LFI) for two beats.

A weak skater will do those more or less on flats and therefore on a fairly straight line, while a strong skater will actually use those edges to produce a curve.

Obviously if doing this to music then the weak skater on flats can skate slower to get from A to B in 4 beats of music while the faster, stronger skater will also get there in 4 beats but using the edges to produce curves and so covering a greater distance even though A and B are fixed points