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arthritis in Cocker query


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Old 28-01-2010, 17:53
Dom D
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Hi
My dog has been prescribed metacam by his vet for the last 2 months.Over the last 2 days he has developed the runs and i have been advised to take him offf the drug and bring him to the vet in 48 hours for a Cortizone injection.
My vet says he has arthritis in his back leg although this is the first time he has used the word. He has had no x ray , just a thorough manipulation of the leg at his last visit...which took him 3 days to get over.
Can arthritis be evidenced without an x ray and if so what will this cortizone injection achieve, now that he has developed problems with the metacam? I dont know whether to get a 2nd opinion or not or just be accepting of the vets advice.
Any help would be gratefully appreciated
Thanks in advance
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Old 28-01-2010, 18:26
kelly82
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we just had our 10 year old collie x examined for arthritis, and they did it all through feeling her hips/legs and said x-rays are pointless in determining arthritis as the bones can show no abnomally even if arthritis is present so they dont tend to use them.

we are keeping our old girl on glucosamine but have decided against any further drugs as we dont want her on them for the rest of her days.
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Old 28-01-2010, 18:35
Dom D
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Thanks for th reply
Does glucosamine provide pain relief and should I ask for that instead of this steroid injection,which frankly unsettles me?
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Old 28-01-2010, 21:51
Tass
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An experienced vet can check for arthritis by manipulating the joint: feeling for any restricted movement, pain indications, or un-smooth movement due to arthritic changes to the joint.

The fact that it took your dog three days to get over the vet examination implies that the vet was very through in the investigation and so I would imagine they would therefore be very certain of their diagnosis.

As the other poster said, X-rays do not always show the damage/changes depending on degree, angle, exposure of the x-ray etc.

It is also teh case that the degree of observable arthritic change does not correlate with the amount of pain perceived by the dog, a dog may be very painful with little observed change, or remarkably pain-free with a marked degree of change.

I had to take my dog off Metacam recently as it upset her stomach, vomiting and diahorrea, shame as it was great for her arthritic front leg

Non-treatment however can lead to more intense, more severe and less easily controlled pain in future as pain pathways can become hypersensitised and “potentated” due to long term, or even permanent, physiological changes along the pain pathways whereby shortcuts to transmit and amplify pain become established.

She is now on steriod tablets as required. Cortisone is an anti inflammatory so it helps settle down the pain associated with inflamation.

My previous GSD got to a point wherby she was on daily steriod tablets for two years when she was older for her arthritic back legs/hip dysplasia and that together with moderate regular exercise allowed her a good quality of life, including enjoying her walks, throughout that time

Weight and exercise are also important considerations with arthritis.
Any excess weight puts extra undue pressure and stress on the joints.

Exercise should be moderate and regular and tailored to each dog's individual circumstances

Too much exercise over stresses joints and increases/speeds up wear and tear /damage, particularly in the affected, roughened joints. It will also cause the dog to stiffen up afterwards as muscles react to unaccustomed exercise levels

Too little exercise reduces the dog's mobility, causes it to stiffen up and doesn't allow the degree of supplementary support provided by relatively toned muscles and ligaments.

Irregular exercise i.e. lots sometimes and little or none at other times, is the worse of both worlds; over stresses and aggravates joints without any chance to build/maintain supporting muscle and ligaments or to maintain mobility.

Glucosomine is usually given together with chondrotin and these are the building blocks for the production of cartilage, found on the ends of bones to help smooth movement within the joints. In arthritis this becomes damaged and eroded, leading to painful contact of eroded and irregularly reshaped bone ends. The idea is new cartilage helps to cushion this.

It is generally agree that glucosomine and chondrotin do not harm but there is less concrete evidence that they work.

Many people, who can report how they feel, take them. Some swear by their effectiveness, others feel no benefit.
Maybe they work for some and not for others, depending on individual circumstances
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Old 28-01-2010, 23:23
MrsRobinson
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Thanks for th reply
Does glucosamine provide pain relief and should I ask for that instead of this steroid injection,which frankly unsettles me?
Are you giving the Metacam at the same time as feeding your dog, because as you probably know it must not be given on an empty stomach! We have had several old dogs on Metacam with no problem and it helped a great deal. One of my dogs had a Cortizone injection prior to a course of Metacam and it caused no problem at all and stopped my dog limping within a very short time.

It seems that Metacam is commonly prescribed by vets and I was wondering what they used before this came out!
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Old 29-01-2010, 08:03
kelly82
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my girl isnt on pain relief, if she gets bad we have decided that rather than keep her on pills/injections for the last however long, we are going to have her PTS. we do not want her suffering, and if it gets to the point of her needing to have pain killers, as far as im concerned, its time to let her go peacefully. i have never agreed with keeping pets alive for the sake of the owners wanting. if an animal needs to live on pain killers, then i feel it far kinder to let them go IMO.

my old girl was 10 years old in october, and ive had her since she was an 8 week old pup. shes been with me longer than my husband and my kids have grown up with her around. i wont make her suffer if she does get worse. i feel i owe it to her to make her last months/years good ones up until the end
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Old 29-01-2010, 10:08
Dom D
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An experienced vet can check for arthritis by manipulating the joint: feeling for any restricted movement, pain indications, or un-smooth movement due to arthritic changes to the joint.

The fact that it took your dog three days to get over the vet examination implies that the vet was very through in the investigation and so I would imagine they would therefore be very certain of their diagnosis.

As the other poster said, X-rays do not always show the damage/changes depending on degree, angle, exposure of the x-ray etc.

It is also teh case that the degree of observable arthritic change does not correlate with the amount of pain perceived by the dog, a dog may be very painful with little observed change, or remarkably pain-free with a marked degree of change.

I had to take my dog off Metacam recently as it upset her stomach, vomiting and diahorrea, shame as it was great for her arthritic front leg

Non-treatment however can lead to more intense, more severe and less easily controlled pain in future as pain pathways can become hypersensitised and “potentated” due to long term, or even permanent, physiological changes along the pain pathways whereby shortcuts to transmit and amplify pain become established.

She is now on steriod tablets as required. Cortisone is an anti inflammatory so it helps settle down the pain associated with inflamation.

My previous GSD got to a point wherby she was on daily steriod tablets for two years when she was older for her arthritic back legs/hip dysplasia and that together with moderate regular exercise allowed her a good quality of life, including enjoying her walks, throughout that time

Weight and exercise are also important considerations with arthritis.
Any excess weight puts extra undue pressure and stress on the joints.

Exercise should be moderate and regular and tailored to each dog's individual circumstances

Too much exercise over stresses joints and increases/speeds up wear and tear /damage, particularly in the affected, roughened joints. It will also cause the dog to stiffen up afterwards as muscles react to unaccustomed exercise levels

Too little exercise reduces the dog's mobility, causes it to stiffen up and doesn't allow the degree of supplementary support provided by relatively toned muscles and ligaments.

Irregular exercise i.e. lots sometimes and little or none at other times, is the worse of both worlds; over stresses and aggravates joints without any chance to build/maintain supporting muscle and ligaments or to maintain mobility.

Glucosomine is usually given together with chondrotin and these are the building blocks for the production of cartilage, found on the ends of bones to help smooth movement within the joints. In arthritis this becomes damaged and eroded, leading to painful contact of eroded and irregularly reshaped bone ends. The idea is new cartilage helps to cushion this.

It is generally agree that glucosomine and chondrotin do not harm but there is less concrete evidence that they work.

Many people, who can report how they feel, take them. Some swear by their effectiveness, others feel no benefit.
Maybe they work for some and not for others, depending on individual circumstances
thank you so much for that extensive and considered reply. It will prove most helpful to me
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Old 29-01-2010, 10:09
Dom D
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Are you giving the Metacam at the same time as feeding your dog, because as you probably know it must not be given on an empty stomach! We have had several old dogs on Metacam with no problem and it helped a great deal. One of my dogs had a Cortizone injection prior to a course of Metacam and it caused no problem at all and stopped my dog limping within a very short time.

It seems that Metacam is commonly prescribed by vets and I was wondering what they used before this came out!
He received the metecam with his dinner, yes
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Old 29-01-2010, 10:10
Dom D
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my girl isnt on pain relief, if she gets bad we have decided that rather than keep her on pills/injections for the last however long, we are going to have her PTS. we do not want her suffering, and if it gets to the point of her needing to have pain killers, as far as im concerned, its time to let her go peacefully. i have never agreed with keeping pets alive for the sake of the owners wanting. if an animal needs to live on pain killers, then i feel it far kinder to let them go IMO.

my old girl was 10 years old in october, and ive had her since she was an 8 week old pup. shes been with me longer than my husband and my kids have grown up with her around. i wont make her suffer if she does get worse. i feel i owe it to her to make her last months/years good ones up until the end
Thanks for that reply. All the best with your old girl. I hope all is well, she is a very lucky dog.
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Old 30-01-2010, 06:25
Tass
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my girl isnt on pain relief, if she gets bad we have decided that rather than keep her on pills/injections for the last however long, we are going to have her PTS. we do not want her suffering, and if it gets to the point of her needing to have pain killers, as far as im concerned, its time to let her go peacefully. i have never agreed with keeping pets alive for the sake of the owners wanting. if an animal needs to live on pain killers, then i feel it far kinder to let them go IMO.

my old girl was 10 years old in october, and ive had her since she was an 8 week old pup. shes been with me longer than my husband and my kids have grown up with her around. i wont make her suffer if she does get worse. i feel i owe it to her to make her last months/years good ones up until the end
I appreciate you are giving your opinion, which you are entirely entitled to, but I strongly disagree.
IMO you seem to be missing the vey important point that animals DON'T suffer if given pain relief, that' s why you give it!
As you can see from my post above #4, using a background daily level of analgesic/anti inflammatory, where appropraite, ensured the pain pathways are not activated and so the aminal continues to enjoy a very good quality of life, able to comfortably continue with what it has always enjoyed.
How is that keeping it alive just for the owner's sake to the detriment of the pet?
On that premise animals on daily treatment to control e.g. heart conditions, diabetes or epilepsy etc, despite having no symptoms due to their treatment, should also be put to sleep, despite enjoying living perfectly happy, normal lives for years
I'm sure you don't intend to be unkind to your dog, indeed in the last part of your post you are saying exactly the same as me in terms of keeping your dog comfortable and happy as long as possible.
I also entirely agree with you about not keeping pets alive for the sake of the owners but IMO if an animal can enjoy years more of a happy, good quality life, with a little simple daily medication, this is in no way selfish, indeed it greatly benefits the animal (although it can become very expensive to the owner over several years ).

However not giving pain treatment and allowing the animal to struggle on in increasing pain and difficulty until it got to the point of being too much for the animal to bear would IMO very definately be highly questionable morally and legally, particularly as some animlas can be very stoic about not revealing pain, especially chronic pain, and may be feeling much more pain and discomfort than is immediately apparent.
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Old 30-01-2010, 11:14
Dom D
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I took my boy for his cortisone injection this morning,and all seems well. The vet says it should last a month and then we can try him again with metacam when his sickness and runs have cleared up.
Hopefully this will do the trick and keep him as active as he has always been.
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Old 30-01-2010, 21:44
Tass
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I took my boy for his cortisone injection this morning,and all seems well. The vet says it should last a month and then we can try him again with metacam when his sickness and runs have cleared up.
Hopefully this will do the trick and keep him as active as he has always been.
Hope it works well for him Dom D
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:58
Dom D
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Thanks Tass, hes 90% himself. Just wont put too much weight on his two back legs.
He always jumped up to put his paws on my chest to give me a sloppy kiss. Cant seem to do this now. Everything else is as normal though
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Old 02-02-2010, 15:00
MrsRobinson
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I'm pleased the injection seems to have gone well and let's hope things improve for your Cocker Spaniel.
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Old 02-02-2010, 17:36
Dom D
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Thank you so much for your kind wishes
Just back from a nice walk...all went well
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