Whats Dan winking got to do with anything??

Oh and the wink is nothing to do with Hayley I know the reason for the wink each week lol.

It takes away from the performance and makes them look smug. That's what it's got to do with it. It doesn't do Hayley any favours at all.

I can just imagine T+D winking in the middle of the Bolero. That's really what that performance was missing, I think...

Aha - I think those were the words I was looking for! Thank-you!

but I'm still hoping some of the others can catch up.....

Ha, no problem. : )

Well to be honest I tend to look at the feet first and some of the celebs footwork is pretty darn good even if their performance isn't amazing.

Yep I start with the feet too!

Who is the best skater? From what's being said I'm guessing Gary?

In my vidoe the routine starts at 2:30 (not including any prep movements) and finishes around 4:10 (I'm not home so can't check exactly what time).

I make that 100 seconds. Am I a terrible mathematician?

Hayley's catch foot spiral was a solo movement across the ice. You would only count that as part of a lift if you actively wanted to 'get at her'. I'm counting in the air/being dragged as a lift, and skating with her own force as skating. No bias there or blurred lines of judgement. Skating is skating, being lifted or dragged is a lift.

I'm going to join in here because this seems like a fun argument/debate.

I think Hayley is really good, and I love Dan so there's a potentially great partnership to be found. However, I'm getting put off by the consant overmarking by the judges, which isn't their fault - but then everyone acts like they're the best skaters by a mile, and then I get even more annoyed.


I totally agree. Her performances are great and she's a brilliant dancer; I'd say she was the best at dancing and performing (although for some, including me on occasion the grin can be a bit manic/cheesy)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aq73bMP4jY

If you watch this one (as this is the one that annoyed me most) - she does three tiny sections out of hold. The first is right at the start, and is pretty good, but it is only backwards crossovers. Then she does one at 40 seconds, and its terrible, and another at 53 seconds ish, and it's just shocking.

The overall performance is amazing but I wish the judges would stop gushing over her and pretty much setting her apart from everyone else free from criticism and just advise her to work on her solo skating!

No it seems maybe the routines are not all the same length which I had thought they were. I didn't make it longer than 90 secs though but am not going to argue over that. However it's doesn't seem fair that they are not all the same -and I think I counted some others at 1.15 - as they have more programme to mark - you get a time violation for going over time in skating comps for that reason.


Of course I am not actively trying to get at her - what on earth do you think I am? I have said she doesn't do it for me but I can understand why people like her. I am capable of accepting people have different opinions and am interested in discussing them.

However I have done that lift and the catch foot is the entry position. Then the man ducks his head under the loop made and picks up the skater. Their lift changed from this quite quickly but but it is the entry position.

Of course catch foots can be done as seperate elements but then they are usually held for certain amount of time and done on an edge. I'm just saying it was there in the programme because it was the entry position and she didn't have to hold it for more than an instant before he picked her up and it wasnt' on an edge but a flat.

Agreed not everyone can do it because they don't have the flexibility or balance. I've not said Hayley's not good but that she is not the best skater technically and I prefer others.

Its difficult to say as they all do such different things and I've not been sad enough this year to write down every crossover and turn ( which I admit to having done in the past!)

Mikey had far and away the best pair spin and he can do some difficult footwork even if it's not that fluid yet. Kieron had some really hard turns last week (alternating 3 turns if we're being technical). I seem to have missed Gary's skate altogether so need to look at that again. Daniella did some twizzle turns. Danny is fast but scrappy (but then it is much harder to do these things at speed over the ice which I think maybe where Gary scores highly) so can't quite pick anythign definite out for him offhand.

I think my problem with Hayley is that I haven't seen her do any footwork that seems that difficult compared to what others are trying and you can't really compare the lifts the girls do with the boys.

I prefer watchin the lifts of the girls. Especially Emily

But what relevance does it being an entry position have, to do with the fact that she was solo skating? It can be solo skating AND an entry/preparation position at the same time. It wasn't a lift, though. It was skating whether it was an entry position or not.

I have no issue with what you say about Hayley (I agree) but I don't see why the need to niggle about what percentage it was, and then by saying "well her solo skating was actually an entry position so I don't want to count it even though it was solo skating" you seem to be looking for excuses. I'm sure you don't mean to be though.

I bet.

I don't think it's fair if you quote people wrongly and make it seem as if they mean something else. The remark on the lift entry probably harked back more to something someone said earlier about being very impressed by it because they'd seen 'professional' skaters do it. Leaving aside that professional skaters would be doing it at speed and on an edge, you can also see loads of low level kids (and adults) doing those spirals if they have the flexibility to hold their foot.

And I guess since I do couples dance I do tend to count the setups to the lifts and the dismounts as part of the lift. Without them there is no lift and therefore they are an integral part. it was a nice entry to the lift granted.

Beyond that my issue is not really with the number of seconds they have their own feet on the ground but what they are doing during those seconds, so 'seconds of solo skating' as a measure of how good they are is not that useful to me. If you say back crossovers, mohawks, 3 turns etc it's more indicative of skill. For Hayley I haven't managed to get beyond back crosses and 3 turn and poses whereas for others there seem to have been a lot more skills in evidence. Perhaps I've missed something but if so I'm waiting for someone to point out these things.

Wouldn't you get extra marks in pro skating for doing set-ups before lifts etc. Isn't it considered 'harder'.

OK - this is getting annoying now !! I actually can't BELIEVE some people have commented that they don't like Hayley and Dan because of Dan's WINK....a WINK?!? Are you having a laugh, guys ??? For me, Hayley and Dan do the absolute most entertaining and well acted performance every week - I really look forward to seeing what they come up with each week, and have enjoyed every single performance immensely!! Now, I LOVE how people are posting that they are overmarked, and nobody is commenting on the time that Nicky awarded 3.0 for their routine!! A 3 !! UNDERMARKED ?!?!??!?

I really wish people would just stop trying to find things to argue over Hayley's ability, as to be honest I find Mikey and Melanie's performance completely average!!! Why do you find slow skating and boring lifts entertaining ?!? I think it's either a sympathy thing, or because you like Boyzone. Which is a lot of rubbish, because then there would be absolutely NO point in having the competition at all!!!!!

But seriously.....a WINK ?!?!??! Grow up!!

I am not a Boyzone fan, didn't really know much about Mikey before he did the show and am not voting out of sympathy (Stephen has only been mentioned in the show in the 1st week) but really enjoy watching Mikey & Mel.

Sublime doesn't mean unparalleled. But even if we did take it as meaning something like that, it wouldn't mean "unparalleled among this group who are far below the best" which would be the only way to make it true of Hayley.


Did anyone say Jason was judging the Olympics? No.

He might watch it though, and if he thinks what Hayley did was sublime, I have to wonder what words he'd have left for the far better skating in the Olympics.


Wrong, because Jason judging them is not the only way they could be relevant.


Being the best in DOI doesn't make them sublime any more than me being the best in this chair makes me sublime. Sublime doesn't have that sort of relative meaning.

Good thing I didn't use the wink as a reason or an argument for disliking Hayley, then.


Good thing I didn't give it as a reason to dislike Hayley, then.

Mentioning the wink was about noticing the grin, that's all. They were about equally obvious, so someone who noticed the wink ought to have noticed the nearby grin as well. That's all. Nothing about disliking Hayley because of it.

It is rather annoying; but that's at most a reason to dislike Dan, not Hayley.

Well I do apologise, I must have misunderstood your posts. In either case, I don't mind the contestants smiling or grinning. Makes a refreshing change from all the miserable people we have to deal with on a daily basis.

Sense 3 of sublime in the large Collins English Dictionary is 'unparalleled; supreme'. I agree with your overall point, though.

But WHY use terminology that would also be appropriate to the Olympics?

I can mark an eleven year old's work and say it was excellent and a perfect score. I can then mark an eighteen year old's work and even though it's better than the eleven year old's, point out the flaws in it.

There are different levels of achievement in ALL WORLDS, and at EVERY level it's possible to be perfect, excellent, sublime, etc, for that level.

If we all subscribed to your train of thought, school children would constantly be bombarded with how atrociously stupid they are because they aren't at university level yet.

There's a girl in one of my classes who is truly absolutely sublime. She works hard, she achieves, she does it with finesse! I don't hesitate to call her sublime, and I REFUSE to diminish and demean her achievements at her stage by blocking off my most positive vocabulary.

Now that's just being silly. If you're going to ask that Jason and any of the other judges watch and describe the DOI competitors against the level of Olympic skaters, then every. single. one of of them would have to be judged as complete and total rubbish. Yes, including Hayley.

What's wrong with calling any of them "sublime"? Or even, a few weeks down the line after they've had more practice, "perfect"? We all know that nobody's saying they could seriously cap an Olympic gold or threaten T&D in their prime - true perfection - but heck, there's relative scales here.

Jason said what he felt at the time. He qualified it by not giving Hayley a 6.0 (well good, her routine wasn't technically as good as DOI can produce yet and won't be for a few weeks either I imagine). So if you want to judge Jason for what he said, you could point at his mark and call him a liar: look! it can't be sublime, you didn't give a 6.0, you lying liar who lies!

Of course he's not seeing ultimate perfection. He was enthusiastic and loved the programme - a fair few of us felt the same. Being picky over his choice of wording seems a little mean-spirited.

*looks up*

Or what Psychosis said, I guess!

OK, let's set aside the issue of Olympic skaters. If you use 'sublime' to describe what Hayley did last week, at the halfway point in the series, what's left to describe her or any other contestant who at some point in the future turns in a performance of Ray Quinn standard? It's not going to happen, is it? But that's another reason for not describing a good (halfway) performance as 'sublime'. It doesn't allow for improvement and, even in DOI terms, we already know from experience that it's not as good as it gets.

Great post and yes, I agree wholeheartedly about the 'mean-spirited' but, imo, it's just another excuse to indirectly have a dig at Hayley.