I really like Daniella and think she is making a great job on DOI. Also she has a lot of be proud of. With drugs she went to hell and back. Now she is completely clean, is a good mother, wife, person and you dont see her falling out of clubs, pubs drunk. Kerry Katona could take a few lessons on how to be the comeback queen and earn popularity. However, when I watched her skating on sunday, for me atleast there was something missing. (can't place my finger on it). IMHO she is not as good as people make out. Having said that I still think she is a lovely human being, the best on there in terms of being nice. Sometimes I find her performance very cringeworthy. I still don't see how she had been marked so highly. I vote every sunday, but I don't vote for her even though I prefer her to my chosen one. I wish her well

Just to make it clear, I'm not saying that Hayley doesn't do anything but basic skating, just that her routines have included little solo work, a fair amount of what solo stuff she has had has been on toepicks and I think she is capable of more. I was trying to see what might have led (legitimately) to people thinking she had been overmarked and came up with this as a possible reason. I think her routines look flashier than they are in terms of content; if she is the best skater then let's see her pushed in that direction. I don't think there has been "no end of complex skating she has done" - not unsupported by Dan anyway. Not saying she can't do it on her own, indeed quite the opposite, but I'd like to see it.

And by the way, I'm not comparing her with the other female competitors this year; I'm not getting my stopwatch out and timing how much time she spends in the air or holding Dan's hand in comparison to Daniella with Matthew for example. The female competitors are often given a hard time in this competition because it's prerequisite that some of their routine is complicated lifts, they are led by their partner and so it seems as if they get an easier ride. The claim, on and off the programme, is that Hayley is the best skater. That should give T&D a chance to design a routine for Hayley and Daniel that could put the male/female arguments to bed and show that a female celeb is capable of the same skating as a male celeb and can do the lifts. So far though, we haven't seen that - nothing like. If we had, Hayley's detractors might find that some of their arguments were leading up dead ends.

I don't know, although there's a few between your post and mine that seem to think so. You might notice I said 'if' in my post. This means that you are free to have such an opinion if you do and I am free to disagree with it if I do.

Ray was undoubtedly the best skater/dancer they've had on DOI but I don't think he was the best thing ever on DOI because it has rather spoilt it for all those who come after since they are unlikely to find anyone who can come close to that level of achievement again.

I think Hayley should really avoid looking on here or any other forum for that matter. Same goes for other contestants. Even those contestants who don't get much anti comments are still likely to remember the negative stuff - that's human nature.

Absolutely. I do feel bad now though, thinking what she must be feeling after reading the TOTAL negativity about her on here, when all she really does is try her best. She IS only human after all !!

They can tell it how they feel, and then we can say what we think of their comments. If we think they're using excessive praise, we can say so.


Exactly.

Blame the choreographers.

That's what people say when that sort of point's made about Haley.

For example:



Imo, if the celebs can't be blamed for something that's in or missing from the choreography, then they shouldn't be praised for it either -- or get higher marks.

Why not give her only the credit she deserves, rather than more?

Why not accept that different people will have different views about how much credit she deserves?


She's not being criticised for spurious reasons; nor is she being nit-picked. However -- and unfortunately -- some posts that make legitimate criticisms are being caricatured and distorted in replies to make them look like they're picking on trivial details.

It is legitimate to criticise how someone performs and aspects of their personality -- especially in a show in which they're judged partly on performance and where their personalities will be a big part of why they're liked or disliked. If people think she's smug, it's legitimate to say so; and if they think her performances are over-acted, hammed up, or "stage school", they can say that, even even mention the way she smiles if that's part of it.


Because almost any negative comment about Hayley -- or even about how the judges comment on or mark her -- is fought against tooth and nail, and so comments that could have been small, easily skipped, parts of a thread become a long dispute.

I'm not sure they want her to win at all....

IMO she is, have a good read through some of the posts on this forum (e.g. people do not like her for her nose, her sickly obsession with Dan etc., or because people don't like her supporters). These are all spurious and immature reasons IMO. You don't think so that's your prerogative.

I don't mean that people aren't allowed to dislike her (e.g. some on here have explained that she hasn't skated with the same technical abilities as others, or that they don't like her performance because it may be OTT to them etc.). Of course people are allowed to be critical and they should, but I find people that criticise her on the skating grounds more believable than people that criticise her for every twitch she does.

However I don't think we will agree on this one.
Last edited by lach doch mal : 24-02-2010 at 08:03

Your posts are certainly very long, and you certainly have fought toot and nail to defend your view on the word sublime etc. Nothing wrong with that, it's refreshing to see someone picking posts apart and answering them in detail (I have even copied you once), but I think other people should have the right as well, even if it doesn't agree with your opinion.

I think Hayley is mostly criticised because she is at the top and thus the competition for all of them (and note I haven't said she is the best skater, but in terms of points she is at the top). It's been the same every year.

I have to disagree with you profusely here! Hayley isn't being nitpicked ?? Not being criticized for spurious reasons??? If you go back and look at some of the posts...your opinion will probably change. The reason she is being nitpicked is because she is top of the leader board, bookies favorite and a threat to other people's favorite celeb.

And I must say...your comments on battling to say that Hayley's negative comments are fair are pretty lengthy and become a 'long dispute.'

How about giving her SOME credit? Have you given her any credit at all, Veri?

Exactly !!! Veri talks about giving her the credit she deserves, then goes off on a novel about the reasons she doesn't like her...

If we're to give Hayley the credit she's due then she is a fabulous dancer, a good actress and a competant basic skater.

Who's the "we're" by the way?

I have read a lot of the forum and haven't noticed anyone disliking her for such reasons. I'm not saying such posts never happen, but they can't be all that common.

I have, however, noticed people who say she's over-marked or over-praised (which is criticism of the judges) treated as if they were voicing dislike for her. In those and some other cases, people are reading more dislike for Hayley into posts than is actually there.

The obsession with Dan -- I haven't thought there was an obsession, but then I FF through most of her appearances (apart from the actual skating routine) these days. However, if people do criticise her for that, it would be a criticism of her personality or of her interaction with her partner; and if she can be praised for such things, she can be criticised for them too.


No one criticises her for every twitch she does. That's quite an exaggeration. Thinking her performance is OTT is not criticising every twitch.

As for finding some people "more believable" -- what? Do you think the others are lying?

I didn't mean anything by it. It's a way of phrasing something.

Ok, we understand

Do you mean posted?

If so, I don't know. I don't remember everything I've posted. I thought she was better than Daniella this week, though, and that Jason had them the wrong way around in his marks.

I also thought her routine was enjoyable if I ignored the exaggerated faces she and her partner were making. (I have a lot of experience in ignoring "dance faces" in SCD.)

I'm not sure there was any other routine this week I even liked. I thought Mikey's was nauseating.

See, it didn't hurt

I'm sure you knew that I didn't mean that. I have already realised that whenever I answer your posts I need to use the exact right words otherwise you start picking my posts apart. Yes "believable" was not the best word choice, but if I had used valid, you would have turned around and told me that other people opinions are not less valid than mine and so forth.

With regards to the fact that some people have criticised her for what I call spurious reasons, I told you what I think, you told me what you think. As I mentioned in my first post, we won't agree (and I'm not interested in a lengthy discussion like in the case of the word sublime).

I'm on this forum because I enjoy the debate, and because I would like to share my dislikes and likes with other people who like DOI even if they don't hold the same view as me, and frankly to have fun. I intend to keep it that way.

I enjoy reading your posts and views

How could I tell? It sounded like you didn't believe them.

You might have tried "more convincing" or something along those lines. Or more relevant to what you care about.

Or is that not strong enough for what you want to say about them?


You are always free to ignore my posts or to stop replying to them.

IMO You seem to be concentrating a lot on individual words without looking at the overall picture of the sentence, and you start picking posts apart if they haven't used the right words in your opinion. I think it was pretty obvious that I was making a case for more contstructive criticism (e.g. skating) with less emphasis on shallow reasons (e.g. size of her nose).

Yes you are right, "convincing" would have been the right word, thanks for that. You telling me the right word now, means that you probably knew what I meant in the first place, anyway.

Look, I'm not spending half an hour to write my posts (ergo my reference to fun). Sometimes I quickly reply to something, which leads to the occassional spelling mistake and maybe the wrong word choice. IMO that's how most people on here post, without resorting to looking at the thesaurus or the dictonary. Most of the time people seem to be pretty tolerant on here.

Thanks for pointing out that I can ignore your posts or not reply to them. As this is an internet forum, I hardly ever put people on my ignore button (so far this year only one person, and this person is inactive now showing that obviously other people had problems as well). I prefer to reply if you have something interesting to say, or if I disagree or agree with you (believe it or not the latter I do more often than not). We just don't agree about Hayley this time.