BBC WW is not stopping ITV from selling its formats around the world, in this case it might look like it did, but if ITV had produced better shows (in-house) it could make money in the same way as BBCWW.

as for the idea that BBCWW should not make any international shows that do not appear on BBC, I think if you are going to say that, those shows should at least air on a freeview BBC WW channel or the BBC itself.

for the record BBC One did air Dancing With The Stars at one point, it was Sunday afternoon, so it wasnt a hit.

There has also been crossovers between the two shows as well. C4 did the same with BigBrother.


first of all there is no good reason BBCWW should step back, BBCWW has two things to offer (the experience & the fact the format is a spin-off) that ITV could not offer ABC, so they were not offering exactly the same product.

If ITV were to speak up, im sure some dumb Daily Mail readers would agree with them, but anyone who takes a look at the details, will know why ABC bought from BBC WW and not ITV, and that BBC WW as offering something ITV just couldnt. ITV could end up looking pretty bad and like they dont know what they are doing ( )

Albeit, Big Brother is an Endemol, not Channel 4 production.

I agree ITV should make better shows, but then even when it makes a show that other countries do want, BBC WW comes it and makes it instead. It shows the dominance of the BBC in America compared to other British channels when even Prime Suspect was labelled a BBC programme.

I think BBC WW programmes should be aired here as well - god knows the BBC have enough channels and people would be interested. Plus license fee payers are seeing the direct link between BBC WW making money, and the LF payers benefitting.


How are the other companies supposed to get this experience? Though in a way the BBC deserves credit for trying out the market and establishing BBC WW that way, but then they did have the money to take that risk.

Also, I noticed an earlier point (not sure if it was yourself or someone else ) regarding the skating show being seen as tacky and a rip off if another channel broadcast it...but Dancing On Ice gets good figures here even though it's not on the same channel as Strictly.


Nothing new there then.

The question is - how can ITV (and other companies) gain experience to be order to compete when BBC WW comes in and takes over the programme?

ITV already makes some shows in the US, it has the experience, it just needs to make good shows it can sell, to his credit Archie Norman is looking to create more shows in-house for this reason.

If ITV produces quality shows in-house, any problems they have will take care of themselves.


The Pop Idol format managed to get itself sold around the world, despite not being hitched to either ITV Productions or BBC WW, if you have a program that people will want to remake, you will be able to sell it, even if you are not BBCWW.


that was not me, but I do agree, the BBC was right to only do a one off "Strictly Ice Dancing" a full series was not required.


well if ITV feels that BBCWW is ripping off one of its formats, it should sue BBC WW for copyright. If they dont feel they have a case then they should not complain. I do not think that ITV formats are not being sold becasue BBC WW is selling copy cat formats. Does anyone have another example of this happening?

Also ITV can not criticise BBC WW for copying a format, ITV has a show called Loose Women which is very much like a US show called The View, I assumed that Loose Women was simply the UK version of the The View format, turns out I was wrong, because ITV sold the Loose Women format to a German broadcast.

The dominance of the BBC in America is down to the fact they have a channel with the BBC brand attatched to it. This channel then shows programmes that have aired on other channels in the UK such as Footballers Wives that I can remember off the top of my head. The Prime Suspect thing is either because it was aired America on BBC America or sloppy journalism.

BTW, what has caused all this BBC WW debate? I cant be bothered scrolling through the last few pages.

BBCWW sold the "Strictly Ice Dancing" format to ABC, some seem to think that BBCWW should have allowed ABC to buy the ITV Dancing on Ice format.

Dont see the problem myself, BBC Worldwide is meant to make a profit and it probably is better for ABC to have the spin-off to Strictly Come Dancing so they can use the links for Dancing With The Stars.

Not wanting to join into the BBC WW debate, but isn't Five Days a simulcast between BBC and HBO? Well according to Wikipedia - that reliable resource that it is!

HBO co-produced the first series but I don't think they were involved with the second series.

There was a debate yesterday about ITV's in-house project (this board is eclectic ) and the balance it needs to maintain between in-house and indie productions. The issue ITV have at the moment drama-wise is that they're over-reliant on crime drama - this can't be sold on because America have enough crime drama of it's own.


Strictly apparently is the biggest export, but that could well be because The X Factor and Pop Idol are not counted as well, so the formats split the amount they make.


But then Dancing On Ice more than holds it own in the ratings (I think the scheduling more than the subject itself is hurting the show this year).


And how will they pay for the lawyers? With jellybeans? This is a small thing that's being discussed on a forum - ITV may have a bellyache about it, but they won't take it to court.

Other than Dancing On Ice, I'm not sure of any other productions the BBC have made which have been from other channels/production companies - I tried to access the programme list on the BBC website but it seems to be password protected.

http://www.bbcworldwidetv.com/Welcome/?ReturnUrl=%2f


Ah so the rip off eye stretches beyond these shores. Can't be surprised I suppose.


I think I'm the only idiot arguing that at the moment.

That's what I was going by, sorry you're right

So Charnham said, probably rightly. Just seems a bit silly - ITV need to make some cash, they have an opportunity to do so, and BBC Worldwide comes in and takes the format on instead. BBC Worldwide acts as a commercial entity - competiting for productions, moving deliberately against the commercial sector - while the rest of the BBC is a non-commercial entity.


I know Rome was a joint BBC/HBO production.

And apparently you're not the only one arguing

I thought you were going say I wasn't an idiot. I'm insulted now.

TV formats are being ripped off all over the world, like Marvel & DC Comics, all the production companys & broadcasters, are best just pretending its not happening, because if one of them sues another, there will be counter claims, and others will join in, the whole market would collapse.


This is a good point, its all very well ITV making Law & Order: London, but whilst its made a few international sales, money from those goes back to the states. This is the kind of trap ITV needs to avoid in the future.


yes X-Factor has not sold well, and where it does its not been seen as a replacement for Pop Idol as it was over here


this is true, but I dont feel the BBC should have done a full series on BBC 1. ITV did make some changes the inculsion of Jayne Torvill and Christopher Dean gives it something extra the BBC Ice Dancing show didnt.

Looking at wikipedia the show has sold into international markets, and is an ITV Productions show, so ITV made money from those international sales.


no win, no fee? but seriously as ive said, a law suit would open a huge can of worms for alot of companys that no one really wants opening.


the funny thing is, is that I dont think BBC WW has even tried to sell Strictly Ice Dancing around the world, this to the best of my knowledge is its first sales, its only down to the one off specail that the format even exisits.


as I said can of worms, FOX in the US ripped off Supernanny which became Nanny 911. Despite the fact that ABC was already airing a UK version of Supernanny.

From the outside, that'd be fun to watch.


I suppose it retains a reasonable domestic audience, and ITV are happy with that right now.


How it does in the States will be key I think - if it does well there it may give it a boost in other countries.


I think the BBC version did appear to be a SCD rip off - Bruce and Tess presenting, Craig still there, same music. IO hope ABC/BBC WW avoid that for Skating with the Stars and make something which looks fresher and different.


It hasn't taken off though. Mind you, some of the information could be very out of date now, but I can't see any there which mention a 2009 series.


Arguable - ITV were already planning Dancing on Ice when Strictly Ice Dancing was comissioned.

Well, say Law & Order: UK came to Britain 20 years ago, it would've been commissioned by Thames Television.

Thames used to import lots of stuff for ITV, once upon a time it made a big mistake with Dallas - poaching it off the BBC.

In any case, there can be many good deal struck from the US - such as Law & Order and the CSI brands.

I don't really think the BBC have much advantage in terms of experience here in a wider sense. ITV Studios (in the US) aren't the poor relation that you'd think from reading this discussion, in fact they probably have a just as good (if not better) US production arm. The only advantage for the BBC here was that they make DWTS and this will probably function as a spin-off. Their US production slate isn't particularly strong or successful.

it might start off that way, but look how tedious the ITV vs STV thing has become, and unlike on TV, these court cases are not concluded, just after the finale ad break, leaving the rest of the hour for the sexy female lawyer to go to a bar and sleep with a guy she shouldnt.

These things would drag on & on in the real world, taking years to end.


for the show can change peoples opinions of ITV, they can be of benefit to ITV in the long run.


very true, many TV formats will make quite a few quick sales after a pick up in the states.


but that was the point, Strictly Ice Dancing, was nothing more than a one-off Strictly Come Dancing Christmas specail, it was not meant to launch a spin-off.


ABC will make Ice Dancing With the Stars, and any other changes it thinks are needed for the US market.


that is not the fault of BBC WW, that is simply because those international versions did not rate well, that isnt even ITVs fault, that is just how it goes.

A similar thing has happened with Im a celebrity... , despite a few international sales, the show does not get renewed all that much.


I dont know the exact details for that, but it might be why "Strictly Ice Dancing" was only ever a one off.

That's true - ITV v STV is very tedious now.


I think ITV's big thing now is to find a non-crime drama that is successful. They did have a plethora of them but one by one they've fell by the wayside, either due to cost or ratings.


It'll be interesting to see the approach they take.


Yeah, I know it's just one of those things. I think Dancing On Ice came through at the wrong time really. If they'd waited until just after the Winter Olympics (like ABC have) then gave it a go I think it may have hit it off in more countries.


I think that was the reason why. Certainly by the time it aired, it was confirmed that ITV were to run a series IIRC.

They may have been but as they announced it after the BBC announced Strictly on Ice. The annoucement had a different name to the one eventually i.e. over a year later used I'm wondering if they just thought this is a good idea. How can we give it a USP?

One major problem selling DOI to America is can you find an American ice dance couple to replace Torvill and Dean? Otherwise all you have is Dancing with the Stars on ice.

in terms of producing intentional sales, trying to find the next Who Wants To Be a Millionaire, The Weakest Link or Deal or no Deal, is something ITV should look to do, ITV missed out on alot of money because WWTBAM? was not an ITV Production

these generic 5pm chat shows are all very well, and might even score good ratings, but they are very personality driven, and can not be sold, also alot of the personality are very British personality's.


is there alot of differences between Strictly Come Dancing & Dancing With the Stars, both shows have been on air long enough to evolve away from the original format if required.


ITV can still sell the show, and other country's wont need the show to be a spin-off of Dancing with the Stars, so will be happy to air the ITV format over the BBC format.


there you go then, maybe the BBC has already stepped aside in allowing the ITV series to go ahead, and the BBC not competing against it with a full series, even as far as allowing ITV to sell the format, without them making any specail effort to sell there Strictly Ice Dancing, im sure if BBC WW really wanted to, it could have sold more, but it hasnt, its the ITV format that has sold.

anyways good night

BBC have a channel in America. I think that gives them a big leg up and gets their name known over there, whereas I doubt ITV is as well known - not that matters in the cash stakes really!

I agree. Colour of Money was their big white hope in that field and that flopped miserably!


I agree, but I think Skating with the Stars needs to take an original approach if it's to succeed.


I'm intrigued to know why the BBC stepped aside and didn't contest it. They would've won through if they had, I think. ITV would have made some money out of Dancing On Ice - but I doubt it's their best supported export. As you say though, no one's fault.

Night Charnham.

They definitely have a bigger reputation over there in that sense. But their track record isn't great:

In 2008/09 (via imdb) BBC Worldwide Productions has produced:
Dancing With The Stars (ABC) – strong performer on ABC for several years
Moving Up (TLC) – 4 seasons, future unconfirmed
Great American Road Trip (NBC) – flopped (moved slot mid series)
MTV’s Top Pop Group (MTV) – flopped (cancelled mid series)
How Much Is Enough (GSN) – flopped (moved to late night weekend slot)
Dance War: Bruno vs Carrie Ann (ABC) – flopped & cancelled

They have also made pilots of Ab Fab (FOX), Top Gear (NBC) which didn't get picked up.

ITV Studios:
Kitchen Nightmares (FOX) - strong performer
Hells Kitchen (FOX) - strong performer
I'm A Celebrity... Get me Out Of Here (NBC) - flopped, has been cancelled
Celebrity Fit Club (VH1) - still ongoing, does OK for the cable network
The Chopping Block (NBC) - flopped, cancelled mid series
Eleventh Hour (CBS) - Drama which got full series order but was dropped at the end
Nanny 911 (CMT) - Moved to cable after 3 years on FOX
Runaway Squad (A&E) - Reality series which seems to have done OK

They've got a pilot of "Search For The Next Great American Recipe" at LIFETIME network, produced a pilot titled "Spaced" for FOX and have the "Prime Suspect" pilot with NBC.

And they're also developing something for Jeremy Kyle!