and I'm happy to agree with the experts, Robin, Karen, Nicky etc who thought she was worthy of 6's across the board.

Oh for gods sake, thats not what I said! Go back and read stuff. I'm simply responding to the above post and also that Hayley as some people have said is not the best skater to grace the show and has to improve her skating ability. My post said nothing about whether she deserved 6s against what she was against on the night... God people are overdefensive...

The poster was talking about Hayleys skating ability generally from what I gathered... I also agree. Skating is not up to performance ability, its something she can improve.

Not at all, it is easy for you to come on here and say you agree that Haley is not the best skater etc etc. You said that some people get blown away by what they think looks impressive but is actually quite easy. My reply was that the judges were obviously 'hoodwinked' as well because they all gave her 6's.

So why did the judges all give her 6's, I presume they judged her'skating' as well. I understand that Nicky, Karen and Robin judge the 'skating' and Emma and Jason mark the 'performance'. I am not saying she can't improve, they can all improve.

They judge the overall package compared to the other routines on the night. They dont judge overall skating ability. I'm not saying Hayley is a poor skater, I'm saying she's technically alot weaker than the likes of Ray, Chris F or Suzanne Shaw that's all. And that's just on reply to ice dragons post. Calm down dear...

Don't patronise me, you are the one who needs to calm down. Who are you to say they are better than Hayley? I haven't even compared her to Ray etc.

Wrong end of the stick in rushing to defend Hayley again. I'm not saying she hoodwinked anyone. The judges gave her a 6 based on what she was up against on the night. My comments about some things looking impressive was a general one. However I would say that parts of Jai Ho looked very impressive, and probably more so than some parts of say suzannes music routine for example, but that music was technically more difficult. And that isnt a criticism of Hayley getting a 6 on the night. Just that she needs to up to technicaly content of her skating if she wants to enter the leagues some of the previous contestnats are in, that's all. It probably wont affecting her winning this series.
It was also just a general comment that sometimes people wondered a few years ago why suzanne was getting high marks cos what she was doing was "easy", but the way she holds edges and the stuff she was doing wasnt easy and some people didnt appreciate the technical content of it and still dont. Alot of the stuff Hayley is doing is technically easier than that but looks quite impressive (not saying easy, just easier). But like I've said many times she isnt being judged against Suzanne. My comments are in response to people just declaring Hayley is the best ever ever ever you know, that's all and I was just saying I agreed with the ice dragons post and you jumped on it so...

Um I never said you did?? And I do think you need to calm down a bit. You're reading responses as attacks on Hayley when they arent and when they are responses to other posts... Namely ice dragons very good and well informed one, that's all...

I haven't jumped on anyone, I just replied that I agreed with the experts who thought her skating worthy of 6's. It seems that too many people are 'throwing their dummies out of their prams' on here when anyone disagrees with their anti Hayley posts. Are we not allowed to stand up for her on this forum?

I haven't said anyone has attacked Hayley and I do not need to calm down. How to you know how I am feeling

Um no... I don't think in any way that by saying she isnt the same standard as Ray or Suzanne technically (which I only brought up in repsonse to icedragons post) is being anti Hayley at all at all??? What Hayley got was against what she was against on the night, have I disagreed with this in some way? Hayley has to beat the likes of Gary not Suzanne or Ray. I brought them up because of a very good post I agreed with. How is this Hayley bashing? I think you're being oversensitive and reading attacks where they're arent any.

Agreed, I'm not anti Hayley at all. My comments were also in response to a good post.

I have not mentioned 'attacks on anyone' I also having said anyone was 'Hayley bashing'

Simply referring to this and that I'm nor anti Hayley nor Throwing anything out of a pram.

Then why did you get so upset about my post?

What post... The you agree with Karen, etc?
Cos I said absolutely nothing in relation to Hayleys 6 on the night. And i didnt get upset in any way it was exasperated that my comment had been responded to without thought being given to what I was actually talking about and being interpreted as being anti Hayley pretty much immediately cos god forbid I said something negative. Hayley fans absolutely do tend jump on people on here... I was responding to a previous post...

My reply to your original post was to the effect that I preferred to believe the judges, rather than someone who just posts on a forum. I have not jumped on you, it is in your imagination.

We'll agree to disagree then.

Yes they do, how may times have we heard them say they've knocked .5 off or 1 point off because the skating skills were lacking.
Whilst Rays skating was superb, Suzannes wasn't any better than Hayley's .. especially not at this stage. I was amazed she won because she clearly wasn't as good as Chris and he wasn't always perfect either.

It's not really us for to debate the marks anyway ... especially if they are consistent (ie ... all the judges in agreement) because we have one Olympic champion and two Olympic competitors amongst the judges and presumably they know what they are talking about and there is no way that they only judge on performance and not skating skills.

The truth of it is, that those that don't like Hayley want to pick holes in her performance .. and they are blind to any technical merit she has. They can see faults in her that Robin Cousins can't see ... perhaps he needs to go to Specsavers!

Again it'll have to be an agree to disagree. I personally dont think Hayley could handle the skating content in the week 7 version of music but there you go. She could perform it very well, but her edge work etc is lacking. Suzannes skating was of a high technical difficulty, Hayleys may look the same level but it isnt. Not that that's in any way relevant to this years show, hayley isnt being marked against suzanne. She's been judged in relation to Gary and Danny etc, her skating is about on a par with them and her performance and musical interpretation is to put it mindly streaks ahead.

Yes marks each year are very subjective. They seem to be based purely on that year (which is the only way to do it to be honest) and no reflection of previous. Getting 27 or whatever is a different standard each year as your judged against the competitors you're against. Giving Hayley a six doesnt put her on par skating with say Ray or Suzanne (and I dont believe she is), so by giving her a 6 for lower technical skating she hasnt hoodwicked the judges or anyone, shes judged against her year. The giving someone like chris fountain a 6 in something a few years ago (though he's more polished now) doesnt put him on a par performance wise with Hayley or Ray either, it works both ways.
In terms of an overall package, though Hayley isnt a prodigy skating wise, I will say hayley is far far stronger overall than the likes of Gary. Gary might actually be a better skater than her technically to be honest, but his performance ability (for an actor as well) is miles and miles and miles behind.

I'm not surprisingly going to disagree with you, K_Evans and Icedragon. Did Hayley not prove last week and the week before that she is a really strong skater? Even Robin commented that the skating now matches the performance, and considering Robin is an olympic whatever...I'm sure to agree more with him, then any poster on here.

I think Hayley's Jei Ho routine did not require any amazing skating skills...as the routine was a different style, but what she did do was flawless !!!

I think all those who thought my original post and those replying to it were there as anti-Hayley posts (they weren't) need to remember that while those on the panel may be high level skaters and know an awful lot about skating, they certainly aren't judging to any usual standard of skating. They are judging, as others above have pointed out, to the standards on this show.

Otherwise you'll all be telling me Hayley got 6's so she ought to go to the Olympics next (as some did with Ray last year) despite it being very obvious she is nowhere near that sort of standard (bearing in mind we have NISA levels 1- 10 in this country (after learn to skate) and the celebs would all struggle to pass the top end of the learn to skate courses.

So Hayley is good by the standards of this show although I stand by my belief she is not up to the standard Suzanne reached technically. She is obviously way above Gary performance wise and his extra skating skills don't outweigh this in the judges view. I don't disagree with that view as for the overall package in the context of this show she is excellent and his performance skills lag a long way behind.

However I wouldn't have given her 6.0s just yet and in my opinion it does have a lot to do with the amazing choreography making a fab routine and Hayley's ability to perform it rather than her technical skating ability.

Gazb - I agree with your last sentence In fact I realise now that's the key. The 6.0s were for doing what she was given to a very high standard - it is not, as Gazb rightly points out, a reflection of the skating ability or lack of it at all. So on that basis maybe she did deserve at least some 6.0s but it doesn't mean she has the best or even particularly good skating skills (as those would be judged by skaters) and those skating skills were what my post and those above were discussing.

changed my mind.