Isn't this what most have pointed out - it's a light hearted entertainment show, which is how it should be appraised. Of course you get the odd enthusiast going completely OTT when discussing the standard achieved - clearly people who have no comprehension of the work and talent needed to achieve international status - but in fairness icedragon your frequent references to NISA levels and IJS are just as inappropriate as those who mention DOI and serious competition in the same breath.

sorry post didnt' appear first time

I think it's very relevant when we are discussing the technical skating ability of the various skaters. In fact it was doing exactly that - pointing out there is a huge gulf between what they are judging on here and what would be judged as skating elsewhere so that the fact some of the judge are Olympic level skaters does not mean they are judging by those standards.

Sorry - am I only allowed to post on here and give my view ( I was asked) if I know nothing about the technical side of skating .

My apologies for forcing an informed view on you Ignazio!

What I was talking about there wasn't an argument.

When I said I wasn't "presenting it as an argument that I expect others to be able to follow", I wasn't underestimating anyone's ability to follow arguments: I was saying I wasn't presenting it as something to be followed. As I pointed out, I was "just saying something about how it seemed to me."

Allelujah!!!

In the comments after Hayley's routine, Robin said "that's the first time we've spontaneously stood up for one of our contestants".

Perhaps he meant this year or he has a bad memory. I thought they'd given Ray a standing ovation too but may well be remembering wrong.

But that is point - the skaters are not performing to Olympic standards and the judges are not judging to Olympic standards; nor are they judging to national or international standards and whilst I recognise that you are an experienced skater I must ask have you taken any qualification enabling you to judge - and if you are a qualified judge would you expect the same standard from DOI skaters and those being tutored to pass an exam?

You don't force an opinion on me, informed or otherwise; I am one of those irritants who decide for myself, but I truly think that you could give an opinion without invoking national or international judging criteria.

Perhaps he meant it wasn't spontaneous before?

I think it's unlikely he meant just this year; and shortly before Phil had said "I'm not sure I've ever seen a standing ovation from the ice panel before." Forgetting seems most plausible.

But those criteria are a good indication of difficulty, and we talk about difficulty all the time in connection with DOI routines.

It's hard to know what mix of things each judge is judging, so we can't go straight from their marks to anything about how good or difficult any particular aspect was.

Of course you will decide for yourself, but an informed opinion -- or some of the information that comes with it -- might help one decide.

I certainly found it worth knowing -- as one of icedragon's posts pointed out -- that it's easier to so a spin starting from standing still (rather than harder as one post seemed to be saying).

I think if you look you will find I am one of those who point out it's an entertainment show and am well aware of the limitations. I am not a judge but I can recognise the basic skating elements and am perfectly capable of seeing whether they are using and holding edges, completing turns, etc and having done all the moves they are doing and many more, have a fair idea what is hard and what isn't for most people.

If people keep on about how marvellous technically any of them are then I shall continue to point out where relevant that what they are doing is not a great deal and any of us could attain that standard given a bit of time and a pro partner!

I mentioned IJS once (having just competed under it for the first time it was on my mind!). I think I may have mentioned NISA maybe twice in goodness knows how many posts and only when responding to questions or discussions on technical skills where it is as relevant as anything else anyone says.

You were the person who brought in a rather irrelevant as far as I could see, point on Olympic runner comparisons and relating that somehow to comparisons between DOI skaters of various years.

You don't have to read my posts - put me on ignore. But some people seem to like them.

As far as I can see the only reason I a getting any flak is because I havent' said Hayley is the best ever ever ever ever skater and that's because I don't think she is. Best overall package - yes!

My favourite - No!

I just want you to know that I am not arguing or criticizing your opinions in any way at all. My point is, if you expect the celebrities on DOI to be professional and 'olympic' standard then you will be very disappointed. Nobody (even Ray) is even close to achieving it...and your correct, the judges are marking their performances based on the 5 months they have learned to skate (bearing in mind most olympians have skated all their life) and not their actual skating ability. I understand that, being a professional skater you might be harder to amaze than the standard viewer of the show, however, you are never going to find a skater on this show that is the standard your wanting...and you should stick to just watching the olympics.

I completely agree with you agreeing with my last sentence

I really hope you don't think I'm disagreeing with you because you are giving Hayley flack....I don't think she is the 'best ever ever ever' skater, however in this competition this year, against these competitors...I really believe she is.

Fair enough if she is not your favorite...your obviously entitled to your opinion, and I hope your favorite does well

I think the point of the thread was to congratulate Hayley not to debate how good she is.

But seen as it has gone that way who do you think is the best skater?

I was actually just going to say this...

Was this thread not created as a sort of appreciation for her achieving all 6's and putting on an outstanding performance?

In my opinion, Gary is the best skater.
The reason he is not my favorite is because his performance level is rubbish, so I would award a 9 for skating, but a 3 for performing. Hayley is my favorite because I would award a 10 for performing and an 8 for skating.

(no idea where the random 1-10 scale came from...I just thought it made it easier to get my point across )

As above I think you will find I am regularly pointing out this is not anything like Olympics. It is still possible to see at this level who is using their edges and who has control when they skate if you know something about it. And it's perfectly possible to compare the technical abilities of one with another at this level.

I certainly don't expect them to be anywhere near Olympic standard - perhaps you missed the posts Ignazio is complaining about where I mentioned NISA levels!)

I am totally aware of how long they have had to learn and how much coaching support and how it relates to the way most people learn. They aren't learning in the same fashion, they learn some basics and then they learn routines and whatever they need for those routines.

It doesn't alter the fact that as shown in the routines he does, Gary has mastered basic edge control and skates with power and control and given the limited time I am impressed by that. Nor does it alter the fact that Hayley doesn't seem to have mastered those things but has mastered the toepick dancing and I'd like to see more of the other stuff from her but she's not been given it so we will never know if she's any good at that or not.

I'm not a professional skater, I'm a competitive amateur who learnt to skate as an adult just like they did - although without the pro partner and concentrated teaching time.

I think you'll find I am not expecting Olympic standard. I don't watch the show for that but as a skater I am naturally interested in how much and how good the skating they are doing, is.

And when I am asked I am happy to answer based on my experience - you can put me on ignore too if you are not interested. Others apparently are.

And as I now seem to be being accused of several conflicting things it would appear to indicate I am fair and unbiased in my opinions. Although I do love Kieron!

Wonder how many DOI viewers even know what NISA and IJS even mean.

I`ve no idea whatsoever As far as I`m concerned the celebs are there to entertain me and that`s all I really care about

Hmm so we have to ask the OP what their point was before discussing it - I thought this was a forum where debate was welcomed - apparently not unless you agree with whatever an op puts. I think there's an appreciation thread for appreciation - every other thread is open for discussion surely.

But that means you accept the word of someone on a forum who says it is easier. They could be anyone. I am not saying that this is the case with icedragon but it does happen. You seem so eager to accept that they are telling the truth.

Did you watch Dancing on Ice last week when Hayley and Dan skated to 'Don't Stop Believing' and she did a LOT of impressive solo skating there...prompting Robin to say "the skating matched the performance...your getting there!"

Sure, this week had some toe pick stuff, but it worked so well with the routine....however, last week had a ton of solo skating which impressed me ... and apparently Robin.

Hang on - I wasn't giving Hayley any flak - I've just said she is the best overall package! Think I better leave this thread before I begin to misunderstand what I've been saying, since many others seem to

Thanks for the good wishes for Kieron though I am pretty sure Hayley will win.

No, I've skated for around 10 years and I can absolutely say that it is much more difficult to do a spin standing still than when you do your backward cross-over's into it. I really don't know where you got the impression that it was easier...but I am positive that Ice Dragon will back me up and say that it is much harder.

That's not what I meant...I was quoting what you said from the last post, and you've miss-interpreted what I've said.

I agree...your not giving Hayley flack, your merely commenting on her skating ability...which is perfectly understandable.

I'll try to make my point by comparing my own experience - not as skater but back in the day as a swimmer.

I did the early morning and after school stint and, when I wasn't competing, Sunday morning training was de rigeur. I was good - very good - but not quite good enough - though I swam for my county and qualified for the nationals: at one point I was knocking on the door of the GB age group squad - but it didn't happen and eventually I accepted that my future lay in academia not in a swimming pool.

Should ITV or the beeb decide to make a programme attempting to turn beginners into swimmers I could comment on stroke technique, breathing, leg kicks per stroke, tumble turns etc. but no way could a beginner hope to emulate the techniques it took me years to perfect.

Inexperienced swimmers have as much chance conforming to ASA standards as skaters to do NISA or IJS.

And that is how they should be judged.

icedragon has a track record by now and clearly does know something about skating.