no you cannot use popularity as the rule to judge music. why? because in the 1960's pop music was pretty much the preserve of the young. now people my age (50's) are into music and its more readily available.

the point is that during the 60's, 70's and 80's pop music went through a whole variety of changes with differing styles and fashions. each 'new sound' was created by the youth of the day, WE had our identity, WE had our music, music that along with the fashion defined our generation. what you are doing now is almost 'fashion by numbers'.. pick a style and dress in that way, listen to the music that 'goes' with it... but its all a sham, in the past it was REAL.

THIS is why older people dont take much heed of todays mass marketed raid on OUR styles, its like karaoke, you dress up and play the part...but to us it was REAL.


if todays music is as good as its ever been...why do you copy US? i witnessed the beat boom (just!) psychedelia, glam, motown, prog rock, punk, new wave, new romantics, two tone, the birth of indie etc etc etc... so theres no hypocrisy there... older generations CREATED the styles, todays music (and again im not saying its bad) IS largely a re-hash of older styles, that isnt opinion, that is fact.

I think you can judge music on all sorts of factors other than its popularity (in fact popularity is one of the last thing I'd use to judge the quality of music) - the points made as quoted by David Tee were all about judging music on other factors such as:

- songwriting subtlety and instrumental finesse vs emphasis on technical expertise related to sound manufacture and studio craft
- the impact of sequenced beats on the predictability and formuliac nature of songs
- the predictability of harmonic movements and the use of prefabricated melodic/lyric clichés in vocal lines
- the loss of the "unexpected" in music.

It may still come down to opinion at the end of the day, but there are a whole range of factors that can be debated and used to inform that opinion.

I agree. Here's the current best-selling British items on Amazon.

1) Classic British Rock

2) Britpop

3) Alternative Music - British

So, if we're judging this on popularity (your rules, remember), how do today's artists compare to artists from previous years on those charts? Answer: they don't even come close to measuring up. Do you want another stab at justifying it?

You are right that there is no right and wrong in music (although the scissor sisters version of comfortably numb is totally wrong ).

If you're using sales as a barometer of quality, then music of the moment must be pretty poor.

Best selling artists of all time are (allegedly) :

Beatles
Elvis Presley
Michael Jackson
ABBA
Queen

All of whom were/are influential and creative artists.

Followed by
AC/DC
Madonna
Bee Gees
Celine Dion
Elton John
Julio Iglesias
Led Zeppelin
Nana Mouskouri
Pink Floyd
Rolling Stones

Wouldn't necessarily be my choices for the best, but the sales don't lie, do they?

Ah, but sales can't be used as an exhaustive measure of "goodness" (sorry, I couldn't think of the right word LOL). I mean, these days there is so much illegal downloading going on, and a lot of people just don't bother to buy, because it is wherever you look - music channels, internet. Leaked music before official release dates even!! Sales will never be like that again - (like the people you have mentioned) the large majority of artists' income now comes from subsidary dealings and franchise!

Speaking relatively, by comparing current contemporaries, it would have the likes of Britney Spears as one of "the modern greats" LOL!!

Probably JoJo. And of course Beyonce'.

I don't understand your post at all David LOL, nice try though. But in terms of this discussion, you don't even have a point.

a chart from this day in 1981

1 3 Jealous Guy ROXY MUSIC
2 6 Kings Of The Wild Frontier ADAM AND THE ANTS
3 1 Shaddap Your Face JOE DOLCE
4 2 Vienna ULTRAVOX
5 7 Do The Huckelbuck COAST TO COAST
6 18 Kids In America KIM WILDE
7 29 This Ole House SHAKIN' STEVENS
8 8 Southern Freeze FREEEZ
9 9 Something About You Baby I Like STATUS QUO
10 5 St. Valentine's Day Massacre MOTORHEAD / GIRLSCHOOL
11 16 It's A Mystery (Four From Toyah) TOYAH
12 4 I Surrender RAINBOW
13 25 Reward TEARDROP EXPLODES
14 14 Once In A Lifetime TALKING HEADS
15 15 (Somebody) Help Me Out BEGGAR & CO.
16 35 You Better You Bet THE WHO
17 27 Star KIKI DEE
18 10 Return Of The Los Palmas 7 MADNESS
19 12 Rock This Town STRAY CATS
20 45 I Missed Again PHIL COLLINS
21 31 Jones Vs Jones / Summer Madness / Funky Stuff KOOL AND THE GANG 11
22 24 Hot Love KELLY MARIE
23 11 Woman JOHN LENNON
24 13 The Oldest Swinger In Town FRED WEDLOCK
25 22 That's Entertainment JAM
26 47 Planet Earth DURAN DURAN
27 57 Lately STEVIE WONDER
28 28 Ant Music ADAM AND THE ANTS
29 19 Message Of Love PRETENDERS
30 20 We'll Bring The House Down SLADE


this chart highlights why many of us older beggers dont rate todays music as as good as it used to be. there is huge variety of styles in there,new romantic, rock, rockabilly, novelty, soul, disco, pop, aor, jazz funk, new wave, indie (the real mc coy) and goth. new vibrant styles of music ...

Well actually they don't, but even if they did it's the music that counts isn't it? We are after all talking about music here and not what people look like!

You live in a very nice part of the world matey.
I know Matt and Rachel personally, in fact I have known Rachel since her days with Karnataka.
The Reasoning don't have what I would call "their own sound" as such, but at least their songs don't sound similar to each other. Their previous two albums "Awakening" and "Dark Angel" are different to each other, the latter album being the more "darker" of the two. I know for a fact that their new album to be released next month "Adverse Camber" will be different again, having a more melodic approach which I am looking forward to.
As for Oceansize? I like what I have heard so-far!

yeah, even though there is loads in there I find rubbish, there is something for everyone.

Fred Wedlock, I'd forgotten about him

i don't think uk music is dead but it is on life support so is the music in the usa..im from the us and i used to listen to the radio 9 hours or so a day ,now i cant stand to listen to it for more than an hour at a time..today's music is still on the same steep decline that started in the 90's,today's music consist of way too much hip hop/rap/and bubblegum pop music..hell even the rock music isn't the same!! music is done by computers way too frequently to the point if you suck the computers will make it okay to pump out a cd lol...and the music from the bands it's self doesn't sound the same..the instruments sound too computerized unlike the real rock we remember from decades back..the music industry needs to stop depending on the disney channel/american idol/and the x factor for future talent and go back to discovering artist who play in the bars/clubs and the underground scene to find the next big thing!!!.

i dont agree about real rock... i rate several tracks from the 00's as all time greats, equalling or even surpassing retro rock.

I think this is what it boils down to.

To some people anything that isn't a man with a guitar can't possibly be 'good' music.

While that may be true in some cases , most people in this thread are bemoaning the lack of variety in the charts.

whats wrong with that?.... surely its a good thing to have a range of artists with their own styles. tbh i find this current 'indie' scene very uninspiring, indie by numbers.. get the guitar, get the look from a high street shop ... its karaoke, fancy dress.

I think you may have miss read my post

Blimey, that was a good week, I like pretty much every one of them!

Those quotes from Ian McDonald, further up the thread, they sound like the grumblings of a Victor Meldrew-type. So he didn't like Kraftwerk or disco then?

I frequently bemoan the state of the UK charts, but that doesn't mean I think there's no good music around any more - of course there is, it's just harder to find. And I don't care whether the music's made with a guitar, computer, harpsichord or mouse organ, as long as I like it!

oops... sorry dude

The music industry on the surface will always seem tiresome to anyone over the age of 18, because if you're any older than that, you remember the old stuff the current lot have been inspired by (stolen their act from)...record companies aren't in the business of taking many risks, so they stick to what they know works.

I had lost all hope and interest in the music industry, until I discovered the brilliant 6 music - not a Ke$ha or dappy in sight!

It's not for everyone, but my point is if you make an effort to look past Radio 1 and xfactor, there is so much good music out there - British, American and *gasp* other countries as well

They seem to like musicians who went to university. How snobbish!

:yawn: Could you give some examples

They wouldnt be far off either bar in the very extreme circumstances

I can't give specific examples, but I do sense a shift towards more conventional approaches to music. I do see a trend away from auto-didacts (self-taught, and thus more inclined to experimentation) and more and more towards drama/music school conventional types, who tend to be "genre purists".

X-Factor will inevitably shape the next generation of musicians and bands. Its influence will really be felt a few years from now.

Or maybe I am just reading it all wrong and reading too much into things.

Also, I do think British musicians focus on the British market way too much.