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Better Skaters Get Better Choreography - Unfair?


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Old 08-03-2010, 15:07
-Sid-
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It was a poor routine for DOI for reasons that have already been given in this thread.

The pushing she's had in recent weeks has been in the wrong direction. For instance, hard to remember sequences of non-skating steps that troubled her knees and did nothing to develop or show her skating ability.

The idea that the celebs aren't being given better routines because they can't handle better routines is pretty clearly wrong and seems to be based largely on a confusion between better and more difficult.
Maybe not all of us agree with those reasons?

It wasn't a poorly pieced together routine in my opinion, it was just poorly executed in places.

And that's down to Daniella, not the choreographers.
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:14
Veri
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I agree a bit with that - Daniella's routine was pretty awful, and was never going to give her a big chance to shine. Having said that, given the amount of time she wasn't being lifted was extremely limited, there was no excuse for her not being much better in those sections, and in the spin. She didn't do the best with what she was given this week, even if what she was given was pretty crappy. And I'm normally a big fan.
Sure, she wasn't at her best, but that doesn't stop it from being true that -- as you put it -- her routine was pretty awful and was never going to give her a big chance to shine.

Have to concur with everyone that Hayley and Kieron were the best tonight by some margin (I think even the judges realised that Kieron was better than Danny in truth, given Jason and Robin's comments at the end). They also had the best routines, but that's because they're the ones capable of pulling them off. Had Hayley's routine been given to any of the other girls, it would have been a disaster. Likewise with Kieron's had it been given to any of the other boys. They've both got the skills and personality to pull off the most interesting routines.
Giving someone a better routine (than they had) doesn't mean giving them someone else's routine. The idea isn't that someone else (Daniella, say) should have been given Hayley's routine, or that one of the other guys should have been given Kieron's.

Will all due respect, but Daniella clearly has very limited skating ability, and the choreographers are just trying their best with what they have to work with. Daniella doesn't skate on her own AT ALL...and last night, she did a wee solo spin that she was pushed into....so start blaming Daniella and not the choreographers - it's not their fault she can't skate.
Comments like that help make my point.

Now some people believe Daniella can barely skate and that her routine this week had so little skating because that's all she can do.

Yet as CaroUK and Lorelei Lee have pointed out, Daniella showed she was capable of more skating, including solo, in earlier weeks.

Daniella is getting routines that are killing her DOI chances rather than ones that would let her show and develop her skating ability.
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:20
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Sure, she wasn't at her best, but that doesn't stop it from being true that -- as you put it -- her routine was pretty awful and was never going to give her a big chance to shine.


Giving someone a better routine (than they had) doesn't mean giving them someone else's routine. The idea isn't that someone else (Daniella, say) should have been given Hayley's routine, or that one of the other guys should have been given Kieron's.


Comments like that help make my point.

Now some people believe Daniella can barely skate and that her routine this week had so little skating because that's all she can do.

Yet as CaroUK and Lorelei Lee have pointed out, Daniella showed she was capable of more skating, including solo, in earlier weeks.

Daniella is getting routines that are killing her DOI chances rather than ones that would let her show and develop her skating ability.
Yet her solo spin and solo jump have been amongst the weakest of the bunch.

I think you're overestimating Daniella's abilities.

Just like Mikey, she's proved she's not as capable as first thought.
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:21
Veri
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Maybe not all of us agree with those reasons?
Perhaps you should try explaining why back where people explained why they were poor routines. You don't have to look only at my posts, you know.

It wasn't a poorly pieced together routine in my opinion, it was just poorly executed in places.

And that's down to Daniella, not the choreographers.
Can you find anyone who said it was "poorly pieced together"? (I can't.)

To understand what's being said in this thread, you have to be able to separate the choreography from how it happened to be performed. When people complain about the choreography, they're complaining about the choreography, and it was a poor routine regardless how it was performed. It was lift, lift, lift regardless of how it was performed. It had hardly any skating regardless of how it was performed.
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:23
Veri
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Yet her solo spin and solo jump have been amongst the weakest of the bunch.

I think you're overestimating Daniella's abilities.
Nonsense. We already saw her do more in earlier weeks.
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:25
lach doch mal
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Comments like that help make my point.

Now some people believe Daniella can barely skate and that her routine this week had so little skating because that's all she can do.

Yet as CaroUK and Lorelei Lee have pointed out, Daniella showed she was capable of more skating, including solo, in earlier weeks.

Daniella is getting routines that are killing her DOI chances rather than ones that would let her show and develop her skating ability.
So why do you think Daniella is given these routines? Is it an oversight from T&D to use her strengths, or do you think it is an intentional measure to keep her below someone like Hayley (and now also Danny and Gary and Kieron?). I'm seriously interested.

With regards to her earlier skating ability: Is it not possible that she was indeed quite good because she had weeks before the first performance to perfect that particular routine, but now with the pressure of doing a new routine on a weekly basis, she is not capable of producing to the same standard anymore.

To be fair if you are right, I would like them to give her a better routine, so that she can shine again. At the moment, she is not doing particularly well whether it is due to the choreography or herself.
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:25
yellowlabbie
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Nonsense. We already saw her do more in earlier weeks.
Who's the 'we'. I never saw anything other than her being towed around on the ice or doing lifts.
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:26
lach doch mal
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Yet her solo spin and solo jump have been amongst the weakest of the bunch.

I think you're overestimating Daniella's abilities.

Just like Mikey, she's proved she's not as capable as first thought.
Nonsense. We already saw her do more in earlier weeks.
We saw her do more than a solo jump and solo spin in the first weeks?
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:30
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Perhaps you should try explaining why back where people explained why they were poor routines. You don't have to look only at my posts, you know.


Can you find anyone who said it was "poorly pieced together"? (I can't.)

To understand what's being said in this thread, you have to be able to separate the choreography from how it happened to be performed. When people complain about the choreography, they're complaining about the choreography, and it was a poor routine regardless how it was performed. It was lift, lift, lift regardless of how it was performed. It had hardly any skating regardless of how it was performed.
So it is about the way it was 'pieced together' after all?

I just used a different phrase to express the same thing.

Nonsense. We already saw her do more in earlier weeks.
I think you've contradicted yourself.

On the one hand it's being said that Daniella wasn't being given enough to do early on and now it's being argued that we saw her do lots?

Which is it?
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:31
rebecca87
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Maybe not all of us agree with those reasons?

It wasn't a poorly pieced together routine in my opinion, it was just poorly executed in places.

And that's down to Daniella, not the choreographers.
I agree. They gave her the kind of routine she excels at- one with a strong story and character. But for once her performance wasn't there and that's what dragged the routine down. It was actually a very crowd pleasing routine- romantic with big showy lifts and danced to a very popular song. Yes, she didn't skate much on her own because while Daniella has shown in the past that she can skate the easier steps she showed last night that she struggles with anything more complicated, so they have to give her more difficult lifts if she is to contend with the better skaters. Her strength is in performance and spectacle, and that's what Chris and Jayne choreograph to. It's only down to her that she couldn't pull it off this week.
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:34
Veri
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I agree and maybe it was not the best comparision.
I think my point generally was, that you can only go so far with the choreography if the person you are choreographing for is not capable of doing more difficult stuff. This does not only apply to Daniella but to everyone else as well. If Coleen had had to skate Hayley's routine yesterday, it would have been a car crash..
There is better and worse choreography at all levels of difficulty. Hayley's routine was ideal for Hayley. Giving someone else a better routine doesn't mean giving them Hayley's.

I'm starting to suspect her persistent confusion between better and difficult is because it's so obvious that some of them could be given better routines that the only way to defend the choreographers (or perhaps it's to defend the celebs who've been getting better routines) is to change the subject.

Maybe you are right, but we will never know that. Maybe T&D would have given Daniella one of Hayley's routines, but they realised that she is not capable of doing them. Maybe each week they have to adapt to Daniella's strength because what we see is all she can produce.
Again, giving Daniella a better routine does not mean giving her one of Hayley's. Haylay's routines are very well suited to Hayley. The choreographers don't seem to be trying to devise routines that are as well suited to some of the others as Hayley's are to her.
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:38
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The fairest way to compare their skills would make them do a compulsory section (same routine, same music, including mandatory steps and movements, let's say for a minute each) but that would be too boring for viewers.
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:38
Veri
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I agree. They gave her the kind of routine she excels at- one with a strong story and character. But for once her performance wasn't there and that's what dragged the routine down. It was actually a very crowd pleasing routine- romantic with big showy lifts and danced to a very popular song. Yes, she didn't skate much on her own because while Daniella has shown in the past that she can skate the easier steps she showed last night that she struggles with anything more complicated, so they have to give her more difficult lifts if she is to contend with the better skaters. Her strength is in performance and spectacle, and that's what Chris and Jayne choreograph to. It's only down to her that she couldn't pull it off this week.
She's done more difficult skating before, and her strength is not performance and spectacle. Even for this routine, she had to head to a stage school to try to get the performance right.

There was one routine a while back where the judges went on as if were a great performance, but at other times she hasn't been treated as a performance star. (Her routine that week was pretty poor too, but so were most of the others that week.)
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:44
lach doch mal
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I'm starting to suspect her persistent confusion between better and difficult is because it's so obvious that some of them could be given better routines that the only way to defend the choreographers (or perhaps it's to defend the celebs who've been getting better routines) is to change the subject.


Again, giving Daniella a better routine does not mean giving her one of Hayley's. Haylay's routines are very well suited to Hayley. The choreographers don't seem to be trying to devise routines that are as well suited to some of the others as Hayley's are to her.
Who is her by the way? I think you are right, and there is some confusion on what people mean with better or difficult (however this confusion is understandable and not intentional to avoid discussion). A better routine might not be necessary a more difficult routine, but would be a routine that plays to the strenght of the contestant, However, at the moment, it's not quite clear what Daniella's strength really is IMO.

At least I'm getting what you are trying to say with the last point, that the choreographers should devise something that gives each couple/contestant the possibility to shine (as they seem to do with Hayley). I'm not a choreographer or an expert so I cannot say whether the routines are badly thought out, so far they seemed to have some hits and misses with all of them.

My overall question is what would be suited to Daniella in your opinion? More skating, less lifts?
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:45
Veri
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Who's the 'we'. I never saw anything other than her being towed around on the ice or doing lifts.
I can't help it if you didn't watch all her routines.

"We" in such a context doesn't mean absolutely everyone. Obviously some might not be watching or might not be paying attention. Or might have forgotten.
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:50
yellowlabbie
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I can't help it if you didn't watch all her routines.

"We" in such a context doesn't mean absolutely everyone. Obviously some might not be watching or might not be paying attention. Or might have forgotten.
I haven't forgotten, nothing Daniella has done has impressed me, I only see her being towed around or carried by her partner. She hasn't progressed at all imo. Even the required elements she finds difficult.
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:50
Veri
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So it is about the way it was 'pieced together' after all?

I just used a different phrase to express the same thing.
What in the part you highlighted means "pieced together" to you? Are you planning to say "choreography" means that?

I think you've contradicted yourself.

On the one hand it's being said that Daniella wasn't being given enough to do early on and now it's being argued that we saw her do lots?

Which is it?
I've said she's been getting poor routines in recent weeks, not that she's always been getting them.
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Old 08-03-2010, 15:51
Veri
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I haven't forgotten, nothing Daniella has done has impressed me, I only see her being towed around or carried by her partner.
Since that isn't all that's happened, you've obviously missed something.
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Old 08-03-2010, 21:42
Veri
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So why do you think Daniella is given these routines? Is it an oversight from T&D to use her strengths, or do you think it is an intentional measure to keep her below someone like Hayley (and now also Danny and Gary and Kieron?). I'm seriously interested.
There are only two women left, and the show does like to have lifts. I have thought for quite some time (and I'm far from the only person to think so) that some of the female celebs are given too many lifts and not enough skating. Suzanne Shaw was knocked back by the judges for a lift-heavy routine; after that, there was more emphasis on skating, and she went on to win.

But T&D had sent her out with that overly lift-filled routine in the first place.

I think it's become pretty clear that big lifts aren't big vote-winners (at least not reliably). So when Emily was in a skate-off, and next week T&D said they give her a big lift to help her, I figured she was doomed. (She was.) I also remember her partner getting annoyed that she wasn't given routines that showed that she could skate as well as she did during practice; but that seemed to make a difference only for a week or so.

There are plenty of other examples, and of course we can often see the female celebs being criticised for not skating, being carried around by their partner, and so on. I've thought for a long time that the show ought to do something about that, either by making it clearer to viewers that the required skill and deserved points or else by giving the women fewer lifts and more skating. But nothing has changed.

I don't at all think there's some kind of effort to keep anyone from matching Hayley. I think it's a combination of wanting routines that are considered best for the show (rather than for the contestants) plus being more excited by the possibilities that Hayley's abilities give them. This isn't about Hayley personally. She just happens to be the one in that position this year; and in any case it's a matter of degree and also applies (to varying extents) to others.

With regards to her earlier skating ability: Is it not possible that she was indeed quite good because she had weeks before the first performance to perfect that particular routine, but now with the pressure of doing a new routine on a weekly basis, she is not capable of producing to the same standard anymore.

To be fair if you are right, I would like them to give her a better routine, so that she can shine again. At the moment, she is not doing particularly well whether it is due to the choreography or herself.
I don't think she's less able to skate than before, and so I think she could at least do more solo skating than she's been doing recently. But I don't think the routines she's had in the past few weeks (I'm not sure exactly how many) have given her enough opportunities to improve her skating. It's possible, I suppose, that she has some low grade injury or is struggling in some other way, but she has managed to keep learning her routines.
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Old 08-03-2010, 21:43
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I do hate these conspiracy theories.

I mean another one doing the rounds was that they wanted to get rid of the skaters not doing the tour - so why was Daniella saved over Mikey? Why are Kieron's scores going up?
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Old 08-03-2010, 22:09
Veri
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Who is her by the way?
It was supposed to be "the".

I think you are right, and there is some confusion on what people mean with better or difficult (however this confusion is understandable and not intentional to avoid discussion). A better routine might not be necessary a more difficult routine, but would be a routine that plays to the strenght of the contestant, However, at the moment, it's not quite clear what Daniella's strength really is IMO.

At least I'm getting what you are trying to say with the last point, that the choreographers should devise something that gives each couple/contestant the possibility to shine (as they seem to do with Hayley). I'm not a choreographer or an expert so I cannot say whether the routines are badly thought out, so far they seemed to have some hits and misses with all of them.

My overall question is what would be suited to Daniella in your opinion? More skating, less lifts?
I'm not sure what would be best at this point, but at least more skating and fewer lifts. I think good choreography in DOI should be suited to the skater and also try to be interesting, appeal to viewers, etc, but it also needs to give them opportunities to develop skills that will be useful later. If someone's routine is lift, lift, lift, even with some acting / performing thrown in, that's how most of their time in practices and rehearsals will be spent as well, so how can they improve their skating? And similarly if it's a lot of acting / performing plus some lifts.
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Old 08-03-2010, 23:03
mandyxxxx
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I don't know, I quite liked the way Daniella's Grease inspired routine was put together.

She just didn't execute it all that well in places - her spin really let her down.

A few weeks back I was concerned that Daniella was capable of more than she was being asked to do. But I'm not sure that was the case after all. She's been struggling the last couple of weeks when she's been pushed.
Totally agree, I thought she had good music (better than Hayley's for me, I loathe Jai Ho!) and a nice routine, but she really didn't quite pull it off very well.
Last week, however, I thought her routine wasn't good, it's bound to happen that some are better than others, it's just luck of the draw, although it must be hard to choreograph around the celebs limitations.

As for the pros doing the choreography, I'm not sure if they'd all have enough experience of working out routines for beginners to do it, unlike the Strictly pros, it's not something they necessarily have done before. They may be great skaters, but may not be great choreographers, especially for those with limited ability.
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Old 09-03-2010, 00:52
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Given the huge fuss made over Sharrongate where she dared to question the choreography given, I'm sure that none of the celebs will now DARE to go against T&D,
But Sharon changed her choreography and music to make it easier. I'm sure T & D and the judges would be delighted if someone changed the choreography to make it harder.

Thank goodness lots of you are seeing that Daniella does not skate on her own, just gets pull around and even pushed into her spin which she couldn't do anyway. As has been said, given that most of her routine was lifts, she should have been able to perfect the spin. The sooner she leaves the competition the better.

By the way, she went back to the performing arts school she had attended herself, so no-one can say she hasn't had experience of performing arts. She's probably just forgotten everything due to her past.
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Old 09-03-2010, 08:40
icedragon
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But Sharon changed her choreography and music to make it easier. I'm sure T & D and the judges would be delighted if someone changed the choreography to make it harder.

Thank goodness lots of you are seeing that Daniella does not skate on her own, just gets pull around and even pushed into her spin which she couldn't do anyway. As has been said, given that most of her routine was lifts, she should have been able to perfect the spin. The sooner she leaves the competition the better.

By the way, she went back to the performing arts school she had attended herself, so no-one can say she hasn't had experience of performing arts. She's probably just forgotten everything due to her past.

She's an actress so I don't think anyone would try to claim she doesn't have experience of the performing arts! Would they?

Lifts do also require practice - they do require very careful timing to go right and that only comes with practice so it's not like she had nothing else to do.

Hayley herself rather sweetly admitted her spin was a fluke and could just as easily have gone wrong. It didn't and it was good but it doesnt' mean the others couldn't do a spin at all. They just didn't work under pressure.
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:11
ladygardener
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She's an actress so I don't think anyone would try to claim she doesn't have experience of the performing arts! Would they?
I thought all the people who attended the Sylvia Young Theatre School were supposedly all round performers, from Denise van Outen, to others, who like Daniella have been on Eastenders then branched out into musical theatre and apparently
The school provides a clear focus on performing arts (drama, singing and dancing),
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