If you think there's no difference, then you shouldn't care that I left out "basic". But I'm not going to defend some point that isn't what I said.


"The skating that people such as Daniella appeared to find easy at the start of the series" is your wording, not anything I would say.

I simply don't agree that the addition of more advanced elements means there's no room for anything else. Many, at least, of the recent routines clearly have room. Take out one of the lifts or some of the "faffing" or whatever.

If the person then can't do any interesting skating, then fine. But if they're not even given the chance, it's outrageous and insulting to treat them as incapable.


It's not true that we'd be seeing exactly the same content.

There are many different routines that could be done any level of skating.

But, imo, your comments are helping to prove my point that the routines they're giving Daniella are killing her chances by making people believe the reason she's not given any skating in her routines is because she can't do it.

Of course, it is an "entertainment format", but that doesn't mean they should give someone routines that are worse for them just to make the show a bit more exciting. I don't think SCD ever does that, and I see no reason to accept it from DOI.

According to many on here, Hayley doesn't do much skating in her routines because she can't do it but, if this is so, it doesn't seem to be killing her chances

I completely agree.

There's a lot of baiting and provocation going on, but at the same time people cannot even express something negative of Hayley which is a legitimate viewpoint (rather than 'she wants to win too much'/'she's trying too hard') without being shouted down. This forum is for discussion, but the fans of other competitors seem to manage legitimate criticism without turning the forum into repetitive retorts.

I wasn't aware that anyone was shouting anyone down. Just disagreeing. You may consider them legitimate viewpoints but that doesn't mean we all do.

There is absolutely no way Danny will win. Hayley will win. And she should. Simple as.

She is the best skater technically, and I always like to see the best all round skater win, unless they're a smug git like Ray Quinn...

Lol, not too big a jump for you to understand why some people don't want Hayley to win then I assume... similar feelings, different year, different person and all that

*disclaimer* not me, I don't give a shit who wins and I won't be voting for anyone anyway, I have favourites but don't care enough to actually spend money voting for any of them

I just think it's becoming slightly overwhelming that Hayley can't be criticised without at least five people at time answering back saying how wrong people are. There's a difference between discussing points and simply dismissing them - I think that's the issue at the moment.

I'm getting the strangest sense of deja vu here. I'm sure I've seen this post somewhere before...

*deep breath* i cant abide hayley. ive felt the same since soapstar superstar; the same desperate need to be liked, more than to win. very offputting to some.
i can appreciate shes good, but not as good as Itv wish she was to save this dire series. i think they want a climax as good as ray last year well bad luck chaps; in this pursuit if fairness youve produced a boring series with no star.

The gulf between Hayley and the other competitors is greater than the gulf between Ray and Jessica/Donal. Statistical fact, judging by her improvement this week.

This may or may not be a boring series, but they DID find a star for it. Undeniably.

Hayleys the best in the competition, and any case you try to make against her doesn't really stand up!

All i read is she doesn't do much skating? (if so then whys she still in the competition, surely you would have voted her out ages ago)

She's the ITV favourite (Is she?, really?, on what evidence?)

Shes last up on most shows (Not most shows?, does it make much difference?)

The facts are that she is head and shoulders above the rest, don't get me wrong the others are improving but are miles away from where Hayley is.

Yes the shows more boring with it being predictable, but shes so good, and the gulf is massive.

If though you want to vote Danny as a winner for taking his shirt off and boxing, or Keiran because he's on Hollyoaks and looks fit and all that, then thats your own choice,

But this is Dancing on Ice, which involves Skating,performing, and Hayley is blowing everyone away.

I've just watched the Bollywood routine again and yes - it was fantastic........ in terms of performance.

Now go and watch it again yourselves Hayley fans.

Note how many of the WOW moves were done standing still or on toepicks and whilst being carried by Dan. Her spin was good (but dare I say she stumbled a wee bit coming out of it...)

It was a fantastic PERFORMANCE but there was very little unassisted SKATING in there.
Hayley is a dancer first and foremost and can very obviously pick up complicated choreography quickly and as a dancer finds it easy to look graceful (very important with the arm and head movements.

Watch the T&D "Song of India" Routine on youtube where they do an Indian inspired routine and see how they do the WOW moves whilst actually skating areound and you will see the difference between their routine and Hayley's.

I'm not denying that she was far and away the best on the night but she is definitely not as good as the powers that be say she is - she is given routines which allow her to do great dancing moves on toepicks and whilst stationary which in turn allow great performances.

Wholeheartedly agreed.

There was very little skating in it of any kind, as far as I could see when I watched it back. Crossovers and that spin seemed about the extent of it - the rest was lifts and toepick moves.

I loved it on Sunday, and I still think it was a great performance - but when I watched it back (minus the music, which allowed me to concentrate on the moves) it was very noticeable how much was done without skating involved.

EDIT: To get some extra perspective, I've just watched Ray's routine from last year, the Starship one that got him a perfect 30 (which, by the way, I didn't much like, certainly not as much as I liked Hayley's).

There's definitely more skating in there - apart from the spin, a jump, some complicated-looking spiral moves and what looks like not a bad use of edges either, as well as the ubiquitous crossovers. We'll ignore the lifts as it's not Hayley's fault she isn't required to lift Dan.

Is anyone comparing Hayley to Ray? IMO it will be a long time before any celeb gets better than Ray.

Yes, some people are doing. And the second part of the post is definitely true.

Ok...I agree with you, this routine had not much in terms of solo skating. So what? It's 'Dancing On Ice' and what she did was absolutely incredible. I think what she did worked so well, and it's not like all we see from her every week is toe-pick dancing. When she did 'Dont Stop Believing' she skated solo a heck of a lot - because it worked with the routine she was given. Just like the toe pick moves on DOI last Sunday.

So it's come to the "So what?" rebuttal now.

I still say there should be a week were there are no lifts and at least 50% of the routine should be solo. I've said it for weeks. Then we'll see who can dance on the ice.

Whilst I agree with you in principle (I'm not the biggest fan of lifts and tricks - that's why I normally support men - this year I don't have a favourite), 50% solo skating would just show us who can skate on ice not who can dance on ice, or did I get you wrong?

Well, thank you for being big enough to admit that the Jai Ho routine was mostly non-skating.

I have a bit of an issue with your other points, in that:

a) I think the whole 'Dancing on Ice' title is misused, a lot, to say it's OK if there's more dancing than skating in celebs' routines.
If it's dancing they want to do, they should be on SCD - which the more trained celebs know they wouldn't be eligible for. The trained dancers come on this show to learn to skate, not dance, so it follows they should do some skating and not just dancing.

b) I actually think that a lot of what we see from Hayley in every routine is toe-pick dancing.
But I can't substantiate that one unless I go back through and watch all of her routines again, which would bore me rigid, so I'll agree to disagree on that one

Is there actually any summary on what the show is really about. If it is dancing on ice, then what people like Bonnie etc. were doing, was dancing on ice in the spirit of the show. If it is an approximation of pair skating, then obviously what others have done (e.g. Ray, Kyran etc.) is closer to what was intended. I'm seriously interested, and my discussion here has nothing to do with Hayley, but with the whole premise of the show (I wasn't a big fan of Bonnie, as her dancing experience really helped her to be lifted about etc., and there seemed to be no skating).

Wiki says:

Dancing on Ice is a British television show, in which celebrities and their professional partners figure skate in front of a panel of judges.

ITV has no discernible summary on their website - typically

'Figure skating' is a pretty general term, so I'd say that whether we're talking pairs-style or ice dance-style, they're within the parameters as far as that description's concerned.

Basically, whichever style we're talking about, it MUST involve being able to skate as well as to perform dance moves. The panel has skaters and 'dancers' on it - and it's three skaters to two dancers. How can we pretend the dance element is the one we should be concentrating on at the expense of the skating?

Interesting, thank god for Wiki, although as I always say to my students, anyone can put anything on Wiki - it's not a reliable source.

I generally agree that people should not concentrate on the dance moves alone (e.g. Bonnie), on the other hand I would not be very impressed if people were really good at skating without any ability to dance (e.g. Greg Rusedki).

I think it would be good to have more compulsory skating "steps" in the routine (having no idea what I'm talking about, maybe having to do so many cross overs etc.). On the other hand, maybe they also need to include compulsory dance elements that are similar across the board, so that we can compare the skating and the dancing.

Now there's an idea!

Set compulsory routines that add an extra element each week, so that by the time you're down to 5 or 6 couples they're skating routines that involve 5 or 6 compulsory elements, on which the couples still in should be improving.

Then once you get down to a handful, you could start doing 'free skates' as well, like they do on SCD with the 'two dances' weeks.

I'm definitely going to start charging ITV consultancy fees

It has never been Skating on ice. The Program is called Dancing on ice and both the Dance performance & skating are equally importent.

The amount and type of skating as well as the amount and type of dancing will vary depending on the routine.

Strangle few posters complain about lack of dancing. The judges do though. Some of the other do little more than simple skating around the rink with simple lifts and steps
This is basically because they are not up to the standard of Hayley or Daniella

I don't dispute that dance and skating are equally important.

I don't dispute that routines vary in content depending on the ability of the celebrity in question.

And in this context I don't dispute that nobody is complaining about a lack of dancing.

What I dispute about your entire post is that you've missed the point. I am not one of those who argues that the skating is the most important thing. I recognise that performance has a part to play and without it the skating is nothing.

I was very specifically making the point that skating cannot be ignored in favour of dance only, with particular reference to the fact that some posters are trying to excuse the almost total absence of skating in Hayley's last routine by claiming the show is called 'Dancing on Ice' for a reason.

So for goodness' sake leave me alone.