[Gingerfake]

Originally Posted by Gingerfake

Rolf Harris was on 5 live yesterday afternoon, My initial reaction was "What is he plugging" and of course after a bit of chat with Mr Bacon, it turned out he was plugging a programme he had made for the BBC that was showing on the BBC after Xmas.

I was more hacked off that I can say here , but the BBC is fast becoming Voxpop radio plus plugging their own programmes, its really cheap and poor radio, and naturally I object to the constant plugging.

No doubt 5 live gets better audiences but I guess thats a lot to do with the foootball coverage, but its not radio to me.

Another station to chalk off the dial, when I get my radio sorted.

Furthermore I was really hacked off this morning that R4 longwave was cut off from the Cricket for Yesterday in Parliament. It had already been on the previous night as "Today in Parliament", so there was no imperative for it to be repeated.
On the bright side...
There is a new French radio station broadcasting about London, I think its called France Radio Londres?? A different type of music too, as yet, none of your 500 most boring records on contiunous loop, but i guess they will get there eventually.

I have just seen this on another thread. Those of you who are refugess might like to look at pages 6/7 of this document, but for easy reference these are the reasons why people say they no longer listen to BBC local radio, as per this BBC Audience council report of April 2010


Listeners gave a variety of reasons to explain why they no longer listened to BBC Local Radio:
· I started to listen to another station instead 22 per cent
· The station didn’t feel like it was for me 18 per cent
· I now listen to less radio 15 per cent
· I didn’t like the presenters 14 per cent
· I didn’t like the quality of the station 12 per cent
· I started listening more to a station I already listened to 11 per cent

I reckon my thoughts cover 5 out of the six options, but take a look for yourselves.


http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/foi/class...e_2010_apr.pdf

There is some specific stuff that is also relevant


The 20 year range
showed that the highest audience for BBC Local Radio stations in 2008/2009 by age
range was the 55 to 75 age group with some variation for individual stations. The
critical slots, especially for older audiences, were the weekday breakfast and midmorning
slots.

[johnnyoxford]

Originally Posted by Gingerfake

I have just seen this on another thread. Those of you who are refugess might like to look at pages 6/7 of this document, but for easy reference these are the reasons why people say they no longer listen to BBC local radio, as per this BBC Audience council report of April 2010


Listeners gave a variety of reasons to explain why they no longer listened to BBC Local Radio:
· I started to listen to another station instead 22 per cent
· The station didn’t feel like it was for me 18 per cent
· I now listen to less radio 15 per cent
· I didn’t like the presenters 14 per cent
· I didn’t like the quality of the station 12 per cent
· I started listening more to a station I already listened to 11 per cent

I reckon my thoughts cover 5 out of the six options, but take a look for yourselves.


http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/foi/class...e_2010_apr.pdf

There is some specific stuff that is also relevant


The 20 year range
showed that the highest audience for BBC Local Radio stations in 2008/2009 by age
range was the 55 to 75 age group with some variation for individual stations. The
critical slots, especially for older audiences, were the weekday breakfast and midmorning
slots.

I thought you might enjoy that Ginge, I should have posted it in here but to be honest I could have posted it in a dozen relative threads. That list of reasons for not listening is hilarious isn't it, apart from the 15% who say they are listening to radio less, that leaves 85% essentially saying, whatever it is you're doing, I don't enjoy it.

I did enjoy this one:

The LRTF found that targeting a ‘local mindset’ or ‘local appetite’ rather than an age group was likely to offer real opportunities. They concluded that the critical factor for both attracting and retaining audiences was not driven by age determinants but by an interest in local issues, local debate and local information.

No sh*t, sherlock.

[Gingerfake]

Originally Posted by johnnyoxford

I thought you might enjoy that Ginge, I should have posted it in here but to be honest I could have posted it in a dozen relative threads. That list of reasons for not listening is hilarious isn't it, apart from the 15% who say they are listening to radio less, that leaves 85% essentially saying, whatever it is you're doing, I don't enjoy it.

I did enjoy this one:

The LRTF found that targeting a ‘local mindset’ or ‘local appetite’ rather than an age group was likely to offer real opportunities. They concluded that the critical factor for both attracting and retaining audiences was not driven by age determinants but by an interest in local issues, local debate and local information.



No sh*t, sherlock.

You could rephrase that to say" local items of local interest to local people".

I think thats what refugess on this thread and previous threads have been saying for the last 4.5 yrs.



As you rightly say no sh*t sherlock.

[BlackScorpion]

Originally Posted by Gingerfake

You could rephrase that to say" local items of local interest to local people".

I think thats what refugess on this thread and previous threads have been saying for the last 4.5 yrs.



As you rightly say no sh*t sherlock.

Actually, probably 5 years ... because we said the changes they were about to make would be a disaster before they made them. And they were. Rocket Science it aint. Mind you, when theres only one brain cell to go around and today is not your day, I guess thinking is out of the question.

[PochtalionP]

Originally Posted by Gingerfake

You could rephrase that to say" local items of local interest to local people".

I think thats what refugess on this thread and previous threads have been saying for the last 4.5 yrs.

As you rightly say no sh*t sherlock.

Very interesting, chaps.

I do not live in Norfolk but both my parents came from there and my wife and I regularly visit. We very much feel at home there when we do go due to the local slant to their output. (Though even their usually high quality output has shown signs of being interfered with over the past year or two).

I think this comment is on topic - it is a station I like listening to whilst being a refugee.

[Gingerfake]

Originally Posted by PochtalionP

Very interesting, chaps.

I do not live in Norfolk but both my parents came from there and my wife and I regularly visit. We very much feel at home there when we do go due to the local slant to their output. (Though even their usually high quality output has shown signs of being interfered with over the past year or two).

I think this comment is on topic - it is a station I like listening to whilst being a refugee.

You are lucky to be in an area where you can enjoy it. Some local radio stations obviously get it, but I wonder how much Dave and Sue is in there or whether they have managed to ignore the instuctions according to the "BBC 5 year plan" ? The last "5 year plan" was a fail, and from what I have heard of the networking of programmes, that is not the solution either.
My concern is that things will never go back to " local items of local interest to local people " because it would be a complete admission of failure.

[johnnyoxford]

Originally Posted by Gingerfake

My concern is that things will never go back to " local items of local interest to local people " because it would be a complete admission of failure.

Ginge, the thing is is that has been a complete failure of quite dramatic proportions, you are not alone in the way you feel http://www.bbclocalradioforum.co.uk/...=2.msg69#msg69 and the only way back is to put pressure on those who are not living up to the public service ethos that they are their to serve and protect. It all depends on how much you think it worth fighting for.

[Gingerfake]

Originally Posted by johnnyoxford

Ginge, the thing is is that has been a complete failure of quite dramatic proportions, you are not alone in the way you feel http://www.bbclocalradioforum.co.uk/...=2.msg69#msg69 and the only way back is to put pressure on those who are not living up to the public service ethos that they are their to serve and protect. It all depends on how much you think it worth fighting for.

They didn't listen to protests before the changes actually happened, They ignored complaints after they had made the changes, and they have continued on the path as they see it for the last 4.5 yrs

I honestly am not that bothered anymore. I don't really know the presenters any more, I don't have any affinity with the station nor any real interest in tuning in. I am one of the lost listeners. I think it will need 10 yrs when there is noone that I recognise still there (apart from John Lees who is a legend in his own lifetime) that I would actually want to tune in to hear.

In 10 yrs time SCR might not be there anymore, who knows. AFAIAC, they have done their best to alienate the listeners they should have been looking after. It is up to them to sort out the mess, not up to me. Regional whatevertheycallit is yet another move down the wrong road.

How will it all end. It doesn't look encouraging.

[jon craig]

Originally Posted by Gingerfake

They didn't listen to protests before the changes actually happened, They ignored complaints after they had made the changes, and they have continued on the path as they see it for the last 4.5 yrs

I honestly am not that bothered anymore. I don't really know the presenters any more, I don't have any affinity with the station nor any real interest in tuning in. I am one of the lost listeners. I think it will need 10 yrs when there is noone that I recognise still there (apart from John Lees who is a legend in his own lifetime) that I would actually want to tune in to hear.

In 10 yrs time SCR might not be there anymore, who knows. AFAIAC, they have done their best to alienate the listeners they should have been looking after. It is up to them to sort out the mess, not up to me. Regional whatevertheycallit is yet another move down the wrong road.

How will it all end. It doesn't look encouraging.

I assume Ginger, that you awarded John Lees legendary status for his ability to somehow remain in post, doing the same job, in the same way, as all around him is repositioned, overhauled, revamped and regionalised. Please tell me it's not for his sports reporting abilities which are at best average, and often fall into the 'cringeworthy' category!

I would recall and share some moments from his cricket commentaries but come out in a cold sweat just thinking about them!

[Gingerfake]

Originally Posted by jon craig

I assume Ginger, that you awarded John Lees legendary status for his ability to somehow remain in post, doing the same job, in the same way, as all around him is repositioned, overhauled, revamped and regionalised. Please tell me it's not for his sports reporting abilities which are at best average, and often fall into the 'cringeworthy' category!

I would recall and share some moments from his cricket commentaries but come out in a cold sweat just thinking about them!

He has something that is sadly lacking on the station, charisma. He may be a bit OTT from time to time, but he is OK AFAIAC.

He also does his best for Sussex CCC. ( They are not my county though I live here)

[Tiger 8]

John Lees deserves respect. He has a genuine passion for what he does and no.. he is not all cheesy and shouty and thankgoodness for that.

[PochtalionP]

Originally Posted by Tiger 8

John Lees deserves respect. He has a genuine passion for what he does and no.. he is not all cheesy and shouty and thankgoodness for that.

And I think he also walked all the way across the USA didn't he.

I'd put the legendary Cranners in a similar bracket. He knows the area and takes the trouble to add extra comments which might prove helpful. I don't mind BBC Sx breaking thru on RDS if it is him coming on prior to 9am.

I am always prepared to give somebody who does actually know something about their subject the benefit of the doubt as compared to someone whos is just a 'Presenter', i.e. who just presents (reads out) whatever they have been given.

[BlackScorpion]

Originally Posted by PochtalionP

And I think he also walked all the way across the USA didn't he.

I'd put the legendary Cranners in a similar bracket. He knows the area and takes the trouble to add extra comments which might prove helpful. .

Yes, Leesy did and set a Guiness record as well.

Cranners had better watch out tho. Knowing the area and being helpful is what the pre 2006 presenting team were known for.

TBH, I have fond memories of listening to Jo Goode on Saturday mornings with Cranners and Crocker doing their charity treasure hunt. Good bit of public interaction in solving clues and donating to worthy causes. And it was local (ish) - (they actually turned up in Seaford one time and I was able to say hello). Thems were the days... sadly, no longer a feature of saturday mornings. (Mind you, I dont know what does feature on saturday mornings as I'm never tuned in anymore)

Nostalgia's not what it used to be... (these days its more like neuralgia)

[Gingerfake]

Originally Posted by BlackScorpion

Yes, Leesy did and set a Guiness record as well.

Cranners had better watch out tho. Knowing the area and being helpful is what the pre 2006 presenting team were known for.

TBH, I have fond memories of listening to Jo Goode on Saturday mornings with Cranners and Crocker doing their charity treasure hunt. Good bit of public interaction in solving clues and donating to worthy causes. And it was local (ish) - (they actually turned up in Seaford one time and I was able to say hello). Thems were the days... sadly, no longer a feature of saturday mornings. (Mind you, I dont know what does feature on saturday mornings as I'm never tuned in anymore)

Nostalgia's not what it used to be... (these days its more like neuralgia)

not what it used to be...., SCR certainly isnt. When you consider all the tried and failed stuff over the last 5 yrs, and then you read the BBC document that I found on another thread, It does make on wonder what the station was thinking of.

In the meantime there has been 5yrs of stuff that had one reaching faster for the off switch than Billy Whizz.

The best that can be said is that there is a realisation in the report of what is needed. Is there any evidence from those who currently listen that change is in the air? I cannot see the networking stuff suceeeding, it is not local at all, its regional. DOH

[johnnyoxford]

Originally Posted by Gingerfake

The best that can be said is that there is a realisation in the report of what is needed. Is there any evidence from those who currently listen that change is in the air? I cannot see the networking stuff suceeeding, it is not local at all, its regional. DOH

Well, who knows?

Asked about the BBC definition of localness and whether it matched the definition of licence fee payers, Mark (Byfield) agreed this was a challenging question.

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/foi/class...e_2010_jun.pdf

[Gingerfake]

Originally Posted by johnnyoxford

Well, who knows?



http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/foi/class...e_2010_jun.pdf

It does make one worry when the man at the top thinks it is a challenging question.
I note the target audience is now 55 plus. They can target the likes of me as much as they like, but if it isn't local it is not going to work.
The BBC must have years of stuff locked away in dusty vaults. If Mr Byford is challeneged by what localness is he should dust off those old tapes and listen in.

Perhaps some of out esteemed contributors to this thread could point Mr Byford in the right direction, I'll give it a go for what it definitely isnt.

For starters, its not celebrities being interviewed just so they can plug their book or DVD or whatever. That AFAIAC = the off switch

Its not celebrities specifically coming on the radio to plug a BBC programme on another channel (eg Rolf Harris the other day on 5live plugging a programme on BBC2)

.................................

[Mapperley Ridge]

Mark Byford is leaving the BBC. His position was made redundant by the DG, something some people on this very thread had been calling for - the BBC slimming down.

That aside, taking half of Mr Byford's reply is selective and sneering in the extreme. The full quote reads :

Asked about the BBC definition of localness and whether it matched the definition of
licence fee payers, Mark agreed this was a challenging question. There was no single
answer and the challenge lay in the transmission areas that currently existed
particularly for BBC regional television. Mark emphasised that while the BBC would
stay only as local as it is now, at least until the end of the Charter period in 2016,
there would be a new framework for emphasising BBC Local Radio’s distinctiveness
– speech-led, focused on quality journalism and debate, with a target audience of
55+.

So actually, he wasn't just talking about local radio, but television as well - which is a completely different subject, since regional TV audiences are quite healthy in most regions. And on local radio, he agrees the target audience is staying where it is.

In fact, I'd be surprised is any BBC employee didn't describe the question of defining "localness" as challenging. Indeed, one contributor on this very thread suggested a while back that Local Radio shouldn't be covering major international news stories outside bulletins.

[Gingerfake]

Originally Posted by Mapperley Ridge

Mark Byford is leaving the BBC. His position was made redundant by the DG, something some people on this very thread had been calling for - the BBC slimming down.

That aside, taking half of Mr Byford's reply is selective and sneering in the extreme. The full quote reads :

Asked about the BBC definition of localness and whether it matched the definition of
licence fee payers, Mark agreed this was a challenging question. There was no single
answer and the challenge lay in the transmission areas that currently existed
particularly for BBC regional television. Mark emphasised that while the BBC would
stay only as local as it is now, at least until the end of the Charter period in 2016,
there would be a new framework for emphasising BBC Local Radio’s distinctiveness
– speech-led, focused on quality journalism and debate, with a target audience of
55+.

So actually, he wasn't just talking about local radio, but television as well - which is a completely different subject, since regional TV audiences are quite healthy in most regions. And on local radio, he agrees the target audience is staying where it is.

In fact, I'd be surprised is any BBC employee didn't describe the question of defining "localness" as challenging. Indeed, one contributor on this very thread suggested a while back that Local Radio shouldn't be covering major international news stories outside bulletins.

Bit techy this morning MR?
It was I who commented about national stories. They should only be covered if there is a local slant. IIRC you are referring to the Chilean miners story. Unless there was a local dimension, a rescue worker going out to help or something akin to it what can local radio add? The story was being covered by News 24 continuously 5 live was vox popping it it was wall to wall coverage
Local radio is and should be different. That doesnt mean to say that a local MP shouldnt be asked to comment on a national; story, that is a different matter altogether.
I guess we will just have to agree to differ, but surely in a season of goodwill sort of way ?

[johnnyoxford]

Originally Posted by Mapperley Ridge

Mark Byford is leaving the BBC. His position was made redundant by the DG, something some people on this very thread had been calling for - the BBC slimming down.

That aside, taking half of Mr Byford's reply is selective and sneering in the extreme. The full quote reads :

Asked about the BBC definition of localness and whether it matched the definition of
licence fee payers, Mark agreed this was a challenging question. There was no single
answer and the challenge lay in the transmission areas that currently existed
particularly for BBC regional television. Mark emphasised that while the BBC would
stay only as local as it is now, at least until the end of the Charter period in 2016,
there would be a new framework for emphasising BBC Local Radio’s distinctiveness
– speech-led, focused on quality journalism and debate, with a target audience of
55+.

So actually, he wasn't just talking about local radio, but television as well - which is a completely different subject, since regional TV audiences are quite healthy in most regions. And on local radio, he agrees the target audience is staying where it is.

In fact, I'd be surprised is any BBC employee didn't describe the question of defining "localness" as challenging. Indeed, one contributor on this very thread suggested a while back that Local Radio shouldn't be covering major international news stories outside bulletins.

I’d like to disagree MR, it makes no difference how much of it you quote, it is the very idea of it being ‘challenging’ that I was highlighting. It’s quite simple, if the BBC finds it has a differing definition of ‘local’ to that of its licence fee payers then the BBC needs to think about changing its definition.

[johnnyoxford]

Originally Posted by Gingerfake

I note the target audience is now 55 plus

Yes Ginge and this is one of the problems, someone, somewhere made this decision. It wasn’t the Trust, as we have established before although the 55+ target audience appears in the Service Licence they only put it in there because they copied and pasted it from a previous BBC document. I have asked the Trust for an explanation, they forwarded my email on to a Head of something but he/she never got back to me, that was months ago despite reminders, perhaps they’ve been let go. No doubt there would have been research that would have led to this decision…

Of course research that we know does exists will show that older people do enjoy their local radio and perhaps are not so well served elsewhere. It also shows that LR reaches somewhere in the region of 2.5m (out of around 25m, around 10%, a not small number) licence fee payers who do not make use of any other BBC products. And there could be an argument for an element of weighting applied to the financing of LR in view of this, if you did so you could easily double or treble the investment at a local level and provide a much needed grass roots journalistic and technical infrastructure which in theory would benefit the whole corporation.

The latest research also tells them that targeting a ‘local’ mindset is a far better way of engaging people than just going for an age group. An argument that Tiger and I, in the playlist thread, have always believed to be simple common sense. Of course if you are going to choose to ignore the facts of your own research and rather insist on following a path borne out of a need to satisfy, well, who? (Your guess is as good as mine but I suspect it isn’t the listening licence fee payers). You are on a hiding to nothing.

[PochtalionP]

Originally Posted by johnnyoxford

The latest research also tells them that targeting a ‘local’ mindset is a far better way of engaging people than just going for an age group. An argument that Tiger and I, in the playlist thread, have always believed to be simple common sense.

Yes, quite agree.

Seasons Greetings and happy listening everyone

[Mapperley Ridge]

Originally Posted by johnnyoxford

I’d like to disagree MR, it makes no difference how much of it you quote, it is the very idea of it being ‘challenging’ that I was highlighting. It’s quite simple, if the BBC finds it has a differing definition of ‘local’ to that of its licence fee payers then the BBC needs to think about changing its definition.

I think if we're being totally honest, you'll find as many different definitions of "localness" as the number of people you ask.

Some people want stuff that's right on their doorstep; nothing else. I'd argue that these are in the minority.

Others want information about their home county first and foremost : something that's always demonstrated during times of extreme weather (when I think many would agree LR comes into its own as a PSB).

Another group wants the above, but in a wider mix of national and international - speech first, music second.

Some would like an all speech service, opting out of Radio 4.

You'll also find those who'd like more music - not least at breakfast time.

That's just a selection of views.

However, I think what Byford was getting at was the wider debate about how local the BBC should be. This is less to do with radio, and more to do with Byrford's previous desire to have moree local video journalism which would complement the radio and TV services. This failed because the BBC Trust did not approve its funding - after significant lobbying from the regional newspaper industry.

That is ultimately why the BBC Strategy Report says that the Corporation will not become any more local during the current Licence Fee settlement.

Apologies if that drifts off topic a bit but I hope it offers a bit of context to what I think Mark Byford was getting at.

[Tiger 8]

It seems that some in management at the BBC lack common sense.

BBC Local Radio means that it is local ..it is not some sort of branded service that plays the same old song to a target demographic because those in the commercial sector have said that is correct.(and I am not talking about the playlist!!)


Local means you have a stong jornalistic base within your county and report on the news within that county. You will be reactive (that is your job) to local opinion .


Of course, you can deliver (and should) national and international news ..and again because you are a local station your role is to provide a voice for your audience.


You are there as a media resource to represent a community which means that you are serving that community, so you have to provide maximum opportunity for interaction.


This should be fairly clear as a philosophy of Local Radio..the fact that it is not, is a real concern..and I am afraid when you listen to all the strictly , extremely boring celeb based trivia..that takes up a lot of time on BBC Local stations..you wonder at the competance of those in charge of delivering a local service or even understanding what their role is? and what local means?

[Gingerfake]

Originally Posted by Mapperley Ridge

I think if we're being totally honest, you'll find as many different definitions of "localness" as the number of people you ask.

Some people want stuff that's right on their doorstep; nothing else. I'd argue that these are in the minority.

Others want information about their home county first and foremost : something that's always demonstrated during times of extreme weather (when I think many would agree LR comes into its own as a PSB).

Another group wants the above, but in a wider mix of national and international - speech first, music second.

Some would like an all speech service, opting out of Radio 4.

You'll also find those who'd like more music - not least at breakfast time.

That's just a selection of views.

However, I think what Byford was getting at was the wider debate about how local the BBC should be. This is less to do with radio, and more to do with Byrford's previous desire to have moree local video journalism which would complement the radio and TV services. This failed because the BBC Trust did not approve its funding - after significant lobbying from the regional newspaper industry.

That is ultimately why the BBC Strategy Report says that the Corporation will not become any more local during the current Licence Fee settlement.

Apologies if that drifts off topic a bit but I hope it offers a bit of context to what I think Mark Byford was getting at.

Localness?,

I'll offer you a big clue, the word is hidden in the title, It means local items of local interest to local people and engaging with them thereon.

It does not mean BBC self plugging, it does not mean content at the lowest common denominator, it does not mean celebrities plugging their fims/DVD etc, It does not mean voxpop a la radio 5 live, it does not mean giggly afternoon stuff, iT does not mean a drive programme that starts off with an hours music. It does not mean excluding people of a certain age and keeping them off the air if they sound old.
It does mean quality presenters who know, understand and have an affinity with the area, who know the local personages, who get out and about to meet them and the local populus, who whereby get to know the presenters and feel part of the station.

None of this was evident when I last tuned in
People NEED and WANT a reason to tune into their local radio station, they want to be part of it, they do not want to be treated as a by productof broadcasting.

If you need more of a clue ask for the SCR back audio 1999-2006 It might make things a bit clearer.
That is my view anyway.

[Gingerfake]

Originally Posted by Gingerfake

Localness?,

I'll offer you a big clue, the word is hidden in the title, It means local items of local interest to local people and engaging with them thereon.

It does not mean BBC self plugging, it does not mean content at the lowest common denominator, it does not mean celebrities plugging their fims/DVD etc, It does not mean voxpop a la radio 5 live, it does not mean giggly afternoon stuff, iT does not mean a drive programme that starts off with an hours music. It does not mean excluding people of a certain age and keeping them off the air if they sound old.
It does mean quality presenters who know, understand and have an affinity with the area, who know the local personages, who get out and about to meet them and the local populus, who whereby get to know the presenters and feel part of the station.

None of this was evident when I last tuned in
People NEED and WANT a reason to tune into their local radio station, they want to be part of it, they do not want to be treated as a by productof broadcasting.

If you need more of a clue ask for the SCR back audio 1999-2006 It might make things a bit clearer.
That is my view anyway.

Just dropped in to wish all refugeees a Happy New Year.

I tried listening to Paul Miller the other night, It was actually OK, but lost the will to stay awake when asked what were you doing in 1984.
I was moving house, that is about it.(it took months to sort out)

Can't wait for TMS......