And you saw how difficult she found doing that in the VT - the chair had a mind of its own and required a LOT of skill from both matt and Danniella to keep it under control.

Give her the credit where its due - last week Hayley got the great music and choreography which allowed her to shine - this week Danniella did and was absolutely fantastic.

I'm not saying Hayley was bad - she wasn't, but she had a routine which didn't allow her to give her usual "performance" and the music was forgettable, she didn't deliver it with her usual panache and that was reflected in her marks.

When this:

Is compared to this:

The result appears somewhat contradictory.

Wishing to see her undeservedly in the skate off seems just as prejudiced as those over zealous Hayley supporters who think she has a divine right to top the board each week.


Did Phillip confirm this?

And what would your reaction have been if she'd stamped her feet and started crying in true diva style?

Damned if she did - damned if she didn't.


I agree that she did not deserve to be top last night - though how you justify Daniella's top spot defeats me. As I've said elsewhere:
Performance excellent - skating zilch.

Regarding your comments about Kieron, I agree - the skate off IMO should have been Daniella and Gary - with curtains for Daniella (lovely though she is).

Incidentally IMO is an acronym for In My Opinion - something you would be advised to use now and again. Your opinions are not facts.

Rational fans, whether they support Hayley or anyone else fully appreciate that everyone is entitled to their own opinion - so I think your preoccupation with personal safety is a little premature. IMO of course.

Danniella did nothing but sit in a chair and be pulled round , oh and a tiny bit of skating.

kieron was my favourite and is in general the one i look forward to most. it saddens me hes all but gone. after all he has no chance in the SO unless the other makes a balls of it

I disagree with the OP. 'Hayley not being top of the leader-board' was not the best thing about the week's show, although I can understand that one might find oneself searching for something good to say about a programme that I personally found the least enjoyable of this particular series.

It's official - I hate props week. Yes, there have been some memorable props routines over the years, but they are few in comparison to 'normal' weeks. I hate the sheer randomness of it; luck plays a huge part, at a stage in the competition when the contestants have surely earned the right to show off their acquired skills, not trust to the vagaries of an inanimate object (and, no, I am not talking about Gary Lucy).

As Robin said in the preamble, working with a prop is not about the skating, so skating ability took a back seat. I know I'm grumbling, and must remember that this is a light entertainment show and not a skating competition (I should get that tattooed somewhere prominent, as I keep forgetting), but although I haven't been much of a fan of his previous routines, Danny's was my favourite routine yesterday. I was, in short, entertained. So I was even more annoyed than usual with props week, because he was eliminated all on account of that wretched hat.

Danniella did a great acting job in her routine and, to be fair, she can only do what she's been choreographed to do, so should not be castigated for doing as she's been told. At the finish, you could see by the sweat on his brow how hard Matthew had worked to earn those points, so fair play to them.

Hayley and Dan were given a nice little routine, which was perfectly competently skated, but I've already forgotten it. Nuff said. It didn't wow me and it clearly didn't wow the judges so, despite her being my favourite, she did not deserve to top the leader-board.

Best part of the show? The end credits...

Absolutely agree, it really was the least entertaining of the whole series, even when there were some of the worst skaters were still there the show was more fun.
Next year I am making a resolution...I will NOT watch props week. It both bores and annoys me every time!

But it leads to good discussions. Actually I agree with both of you, although the routines weren't too bad this year (boa), prop week still doesn't allow people to expand on and show off their skills from previous weeks. Whatever people say, Daniella's routine could have been seated (I mean skated) earlier in the competition. Why not have a combined compulsory element week (e.g. do the spin and the jump and a shadow sequence thing). That would really sort the boys from the men.

Or - if you're going to have a prop - give everybody the same one. Then you can compare what the contestants are able to do with it and there's no argument about which is easier.

Yep that would be a good idea as well. It's interesting in previous years we never had so many discussions around the props and the choreography. I think this year we have a bunch of pretty good contestants (none of the remaining contestants are particularly weak).

However, having seen Kieron, Gary and Danny all attempt elements from previous weeks (and be more confident in them), it would be great if we could see a week where they have to combine different ones.

I agree. Actually I'm enjoying this year's competition a lot more because I think all the remaining contestants are good and have been for a couple of weeks. Although Hayley is a clear frontrunner, the competition feels much tighter and the rest of the pack are all capable of good routines. Last year the combination of Ray outclassing all the others by miles and Coleen Nolan lingering like a bad smell made the series less interesting generally (although it produced several of the most memorable routines ever - mostly by Ray; one from Todd Carty!)
I'd love to see them be made to combine the different things they've learned in a routine. I'd also like a cap put on the number of lifts they can include.

Yes that's what I tried to say. Last year, they could give Ray routines that no-one else could do, and Coleen was so far behind that the choreography did not need to be challenging. This year, the choreography plays a much bigger role in whether someone stays or not, and can change the position on the leaderboard (because they are all quite good)

I think having less lifts would be a great idea. Both Hayley and Daniella are probably capable of producing good skating routines without spending 3/4 of it in the air (although lifts can be difficult and require core strength).

Also, the prop is different from other required elements because it is used throughout all, or most of, the routine.

Given that and what Robin said was being looked for this week and how skating might take a bit of a back seat, I don't think it was unreasonable for Daniella to get the highest marks.

I think people often fail to distinguish between (1) I disagree with a judge's marks but still accept that it's legitimate to see things the way that judge did, and (2) the judge's marks are so unreasonable that they must be trying to "manipulate" the results / protect their favourite (or pet) / etc.

In some posts, the judges are being accused of (2) re Daniella, and I don't think that's right.

That isn't all Robin said.

That's ignoring the issue about honesty in their marks, I see, even though it was what most of my post was about.

Do you think their marks were honest expressions of how good they thought the couples were, or were they instead using the marks to manipulate the results or to keep someone out of the skateoff?

Accusations that the judges are marking to "manipulate" the results or to protect someone they like are accusing them of dishonesty, and it would be a pathetic quibble to say that sort of dishonesty isn't technically a "lie".

(Skating was mentioned in connection with her routine, btw, though I don't have time to go back and transcribe the exact words at the moment).

Firstly, I agree with you that it is not right to assume that the judges are trying to manipulate the board in anyone's favour. There is no reason for it, because even if one of their favourites (and they all have favourites, they are human after all) would be in the skate off, they could still save them for a variety of other reasons.

I also agree that the prop has to be used throughout the routine, and that the skating can take a backseat, but IMO this has been taken too far in Daniella's routine. Do I think that is her fault, no. She may have been capable of producing more skating, but the choreography did not allow her to do so.

For weeks now, Hayley has been criticised for not producing enough technical skating, and for the fact that Dan makes her look good and carries her around. However, the same people are now praising Daniella's routine, and refer to the fact that it is alright, because it was props week. Daniella's routine was enjoyable, and she acted it brilliantly, however, she hardly skated in it and Matt quite evidently did a lot of the work. That's what I find annoying.

Looking at the boys particularly (as I wasn't too taken with Hayley's routine either), it is possible to incorporate the prop and still do some skating.

There's a contradiction in there between "Danniella did a great acting job in her routine and, to be fair, she can only do what she's been choreographed to do" and "Hayley and Dan were given a nice little routine, which was perfectly competently skated, ....... she did not deserve to top the leader-board". If both people execute what they are given well, you are inevitably left just marking the routine or they both should get the same mark.

Thats a problem every week and you can only get around it some way by using the fact that everyone is doing roughly the same thing, everyone just has a partner, some skates and their ability and the assumption that what they are doing was picked to show off their ability. There's also a tradeoff between how much risk you take and the reward. In props weeks as you say all that stops. Different props allow or disallow different things, Daniella gets to sit down for half a routine. Risk is determined by the prop- some people literally get props they can put their foot in.

Thats why I think the judges commented so much along the lines of it was dull but you did what you were told to and argued over what that shoud mean in terms of marks.They have been doing this more often criticising the music or choregraphy but last sunday it was almost an epedemic. Problem is they didn't find a logical way of marking it, marked Daniella highest for the easiest routine and sent the one person who had a prop that could foul him up in the dance off home.

As indeed we saw because they were arguing it on air, the problem is how to avoid marking the question setter not the person who answered the question. If Daniella has an easy routine that requires acting skill, sitting and some week one moves and performs it well she gets a good mark-but then so should everyone else who gets a dull routine and performs it well and arguably so does the person who does something harder but makes a few mistakes. If its a constant problem elsewhere you would find a way of setting more equal tasks to perform and failing that you would reach an agreement on what to do when you faced the need to adjust marks.

The others did more skating, but it wasn't very interesting skating, and they had props that more or less required it. It's not at all clear that their routines should have had higher marks than Daniella's just because they skated.

Besides, this isn't the first time this series that a well-performed routine that had little proper skating has received high marks. One of the earlier weeks was very performance-oriented (I can no longer remember which one), for example, and Daniella and others had good marks then as well.

I was more annoyed by it then. Props week is obviously one that can be dominated by performance issues.

In other weeks when people have disagreed with the judges about their top marks, their views were ridiculed and dismissed because they were disagreeing with "experts" and Olympic skaters. This week, it's going the other way and the judges are being accused of manipulating, yet they're still just as much experts and Olympic skaters as before. It seems to depend on who's top. When Hayley's top, the judges shouldn't be questioned. When it's Daniella, the judges are talked about as if they're cheating -- either in their marks or by changing the marking criteria.


Some of the criticism of Hayley has excessive. I've seen posts saying she doesn't skate at all when clearly she does. Also, her toepick dancing (which has been criticised) clearly isn't being carried around. However, a lot of the criticism about Heyley and her routines is largely to explain why people disagree with some of the positive claims about her.


Yes, but if the skating isn't very interesting, why should they get top marks for it?

I agree, given what Robin said at the beginning that the judges marks are completely explainable. However, I don't believe it was right.
I don't agree with Robin that the skating should take a back seat at all.
Skating, performance and prop should all have equal prominence - assuming we must have props of course.

Well that's where we disagree. I thougth Danny's and Kieron's routines were interesting, and well executed. I think I'm not alone in that opinion. Of course you are entitled to your own opinion, so if you were bored by the boys' skated routines, I can see why you would find Daniella's (who was a wow performance) more interesting.

I do agree with you in one aspect. It must be tedious to see people defend the judges one week in relationship to a performance, only to see them in the next week complain about favouritsm when they do the same again. However, I think most people would agree that Hayley's Jai Ho performance included more skating thatn Daniella's last routine.

To me though, having been persuaded by some people on here (for instance icedragon) that skating is important, I don't then change that opinion just because it's prop week and just because someone that is universally liked has done the non-skating routine (I quite like Kieron, but if he had been sitting in a chair for 3/4 of his performance, I would not have been impressed). I maintain if Hayley had done Daniella's routine (although I'm sure it wouldn't have been such a sexy performance), she would have been slated for non-skating.

You said something stronger than that before:

Do you really think they changed the criteria to benefit Daniella (even though Hayley has been the top performer and might well have been again)? It seems to me they changed it because it's props week.

As a tv show, DOI can set whatever criteria it wants within very broad limits. There's no requirement that skating, performance and props have equal weight. My own view is that they've been giving too much weight to performance every week.

Props week is an unusual case where it's not surprising that performance is given even more weight. "Flying" will take us ever further in that direction. If it were up to me I'd get rid of props and flying.

I thought their routines were reasonably interesting and well executed but Daniella's was more interesting and at least as well executed. The only difference that's clearly in their favour is that they did more skating, something which has never put them ahead of Hayley in any of the weeks they did more skating than her. So here's props week, even more a performance week than usual ...


It wasn't just defending the judges (or even only last week). It was talking as if it made no sense to disagree with the judges, because they were experts and Olympic skaters. Well, they're still just as much experts and Olympic skaters.

And not it's not just disagreeing with them. They are supposedly manipulating the results or have changed the marking criteria in some suspect way.

One week they're respected experts and Olympic skaters who know much better than mere viewers; the next week, they're virtually cheats.

Taking myself as an example, I think skating is important and ought to be more important than it has been in the marking this year. I haven't changed my view at all on that from week to week.

But thinking the show ought to do something different is not the same as thinking that what it is doing is illegitimate.

I do think it's a problem in shows like this when the judges and the people who devise the routines aren't in sync. It's a problem at times in SCD as well, even though it's the pro partners who create the routines.

It's made worse by there being (so far as we know) very little in the way of set criteria. The judges can mark pretty much however they want.

However, I don't think it makes sense to say the celebs should be marked only on the things that are down to them. If we take out everything that's down to T&D or other factors outside their control, there's very little left.

As I said in the thread about this week's show, think of Suzanne's "Music" routine and also her routine that was criticised and iirc marked down for being too full of jumps. If we take out everything that's supposedly down to T&D from what's considered when marking, how is "Music" supposed to get such high marks? How are the judges supposed to show the lift-filled routine is worth less?

Exactly, I think they did change because it was props week.

Do I believe there is a big conspiracy to replace Hayley with Danniella on the leader board? - no.
Do I believe that those in charge of DoI rules implement props week in such a way that they can hope for a "dramatic" change? - yes.
The guidelines for marking they obviously suggest to the judges is very likely to engineer a change to the leader board. Props week is marked differently to the rest so it makes sense that a leader board change may result.

I agree DoI sets its own rules - there is no requirement for skating, perfomance and prop to have equal weight. I do however believe that I would prefer it if they did have.


I agree with you, props week and flying add nothing valuable to the show and it would be better without them.

Ah I see my name's come up again in this debate. But personally I do treat props week as a separate thing because all other weeks they only have their skills at skating and dancing but in props week they are actually showing us an entirely different skill (as they do in flying week) which is how well they can control and utilise their prop.

Some of the props demand skating as well (you can't sit on a hat for example) and the real skill Danny demonstrated was that he learnt to control that hat really well and I thought his routine was excellent (would have had him top as I think hat is hardest prop - you have to skate as well, you can't use it to lift someone, easy to drop). The chair however more or less demands you sit on it but that doesn't make it easy to control on ice. I have sat on a chair being pushed over the ice and it's very hard to control and to stay on it even without the added instability of castors. Last year the chair routine was the only one of Roxanne's routines I liked despite their being precious little skating in that routine.

Last week Hayley was top for a wow routine that didn't have a lot of skating skills as such (much on the spot wow choreography and toepick hopping) and this week Daniella was top for a wow routine that didn't have a lot of skating either.

I'd have had different people top both weeks but I'm not one of the judges and since people told me I shouldn't disagree with them last week since they are Olympic skaters etc etc then they should accept the judges decisions this week too (since they are the same judges) or understand why it's perfectly acceptable to disagree with the judges.

Again as i said before, I don't think any of this year's routines had as little skating content as Daniella's last week. I don't mind people enjoying it and I understand, but in the context of DOI I think it was one of the weakest. IMO in previous weeks Hayley has incorporated more and more skating (improving on the skating aspect, which Robin has commented upon, which is what I would expect in later weeks), whereas Daniella has gone backwards. This has now culminated in her not skating at all (exaggeration on my part), shame as even I can see that she is able to do more. Maybe it is due to the choreography and the props, but IMO we should not reward a completely non-skating routine at this stage of the competition.


I already agreed with you on that point, and I could see where you were coming from. I'm equally sure though, that some people who have for weeks stated that Hayley is overmarked (ergo they implied that the judges don't know what they are doing; and there were quite a few of them on here), are now using the "judges know what they are doing" stance when it comes to defending Daniella. We are after all human, and it depends where our loyalties lie.


I completely agree with you on this point. I don't think putting Daniella at the top was illegitimate (its' up to the judges), however IMO awarding someone such high marks for a very enjoyable, but essentially non-skating routine is giving out the wrong message and is less likely to be an incentive for the other contestants to pull up their socks and incorporate more skating. If sitting in a chair gets you top marks, you certainly don't have to put any more effort into your skating. They probably should have given Coleen the chair, it would have been right up her street (I'm obviously joking).