In my opinion, the leader board was changed to add a little bit of 'drama and spice' to the competition. If you brought 6 judges, completely impartial...SKATING judges, they would never place Hayley below Daniella.

To Ice Dragon - as I debated with you last week over hayley's routine, I absolutely think you must agree that Daniella did all of NO skating this week, and therefore not deserve her place on top spot. I also hope you agree that Hayley did some (not a lot..but some) solo skating...a lot more than Daniella, anyway.

To be fair, you could say that I used your name in a complimentary way. After all, it was after a discussion with you that I had a more critical look at some of Hayley's performances.

I now completely understand that skating is important, but as I said IMO this shouldn't change in props week. Maybe it doesn't have the same importance, but there should be some skating. If Hayley had performed Daniella's routine this week, lots of people would complain about the lack of skating that have no issues with the lack of skating because it is Daniella we are talking about.

She didn't do 'no skating' - is that even a sentence - anyway you know what I mean.

She did a lift with Matthew although you couldn't see much of it as a lot was out of shot - rubbish camerawork again. She also had to control the chair on her own a few times. And trust me when she was sitting in that chair there's no 'just sitting' about it when you are traveling over the ice on a spinning chair - it's hard enough on a normal chair in a straight line on ice and using it as the entry to the float spin was impressive again, particularly as it's not a stable chair.

Yes there was more skating in Hayley's routine - nothing much earth shattering though. Gary's, Danny's and Kieron's were all faster and more exciting though I quite liked her little hoppy steps (bit of a theme for Hayley this year)

If you were adamant the judges must be right before (as I believe you were) simply because of who they are and what they have done, then you cannot change your mind this week because this week you disagree. Or else you have to respect people's rights to disagree with the judges.

This week was about controlling and integrating a prop - I'd have had Danny and Kieron above both Daniella and Hayley. See i still disagree with the judges.

As a side note I notice those who were quick to disagree that the choreography and music had a lot to do with Hayley's wow performance last week seem to largely be the same one's quick to blame the music and choreography for her not being top this week.

Swings and roundabouts

There I agree with you, obviously for completely different reasons.

Thanks!

I do see what you are saying but in props week how much skating you can do is partly dictated by the prop. Maybe she could have done more but then you do have to look at the quality as well and that's why I'd have Danny and Kieron above Hayley - probably above Daniella too as they produced great routines with their props and skating. Hayley left me distinctly underwhelmed on an almost Gary scale - and he still has better skating skills but I'd have put Hayley above him as even on a duff routine she sold it more than he did. My order would have been Danny, Kieron /Daniella, Hayley, Gary.

I still love Kieron though

Thank goodness your not a judge on the panel then

I find it really interesting, and slightly strange that you were a fan of Daniella's performance, but not much a fan on Hayley's last week...mainly due to skating ability.

If you watch the routine back, Daniella did a total 0 seconds solo skating (meaning not one little bit of the routine was done solo) and a total of 8 seconds with her blades on the ice.

For me...my case I rest

but every week you are disappointed in Hayley, even with her Jai Ho routine you found something to criticise yet not Daniella this week, very strange. You are making more excuses for Daniella but you rarely make them for Hayley. I might add that you are certainly not the only one.

Most of the posts I've seen suggesting we shouldn't disagree with the skating expert judges relate to their assessments of who is the best skater, not to their overall judging of performance and overall marks.

It seems clear to me that judgement of performance is subjective but no special knowledge is needed to have an opinion, but judgement of skating skill needs specialist knowledge and the more expert the judge, the greater reliability we should place on their view. As Olympic standard skaters T&D, Robin, Karen and Nicky qualify as some of the most expert around.

So you're agreeing Gary is the best skater then since that's what they've said. It's clear they are not judging solely on technical skating skills though isn't it, or Gary would have been top last Sunday.

You don't need to be an Olympian to tell if someone is doing a 3 turn or holding an edge. The skaters level of skill is not so great that there would be any debate about that. What they do have the advantage of is being in the studio so they are better able to judge things like speed (it's all harder at speed) and stability.

Yup, I'm certainly starting to agree with this....

I thought most people agreed that Gary was one of the best skaters, but that his problem was the performance side. There didn't seem to be a question about that, or was there (sorry I might have missed that).

I find it difficult to understand why anyone could be so horrible about Hayley. She really does do what she is supposed to do. Is it because she is so good. I lost the one and only person on their who has gone but that would not stop me from saying positive things about someone who is genuinely good.

I wish we had had a Kieron v Daniella skate off last with with Daniella staying. Now then we would have heard some 'slagging' of Daniella and I bet she wouldn't be topping the poll on here this week either

Oh dear - shame isn't it.

Do I really have to explain again that
a) I agree with the judges that props week is not really about the skating and therefore it's the one week I don't judge them much on that and
b) Actually I preferred Danny and Kieron to both Daniella and Hayley and
c) even when it was someone I didn't like such as Roxanne last year I understand a chair is a prop that demands to be sat on and the routines are bound to reflect that. Roxy I thought did a good job last year and Daniella did a good job with it this year.

Oh and d) sadly I really can't take to Hayley so yes I am probably a bit biased against her. I think someone else put their finger on it in another thread when they mentioned how Kyran Bracken always seemed to be really enjoying it so much and was able to take people along with him in that enjoyment. His enthusiasm was infectious even through the TV.

I get that from Kieron and from Daniella but not from Hayley whose competitiveness seems very contained (nothing wrong with being competitive just I get no sense of sharing her experience as I do with some of the others)

Finally. Nothing wrong with it, but it's nice that you are admitting it.

I don't know I think I am begining to be confused too

I think the point was that the judges were to be trusted on the technical side so I thought it worth pointing out that they were obviously judging more than the technical in all previous weeks too else they'd have had Gary top every week. They didn't and so the performance is part of it too so - oh I think I've lost the will to live :yawn:

But we knew that anyway and not only a 'bit' but maybe a 'big bit'.

It was also about their marks. And it wasn't only about the so-called skating judges either.


We never know how much of the mark is about technical aspects of skating that require such knowledge.

Me too, but maybe I got something wrong and I joined the discussion at the wrong time. If so I apologise. However, I was answering to your point whether Mandyxxx was agreeing that Gary was the best skater, which the judges and T&D have confirmed (doesn't make him the best overall package). Might have gotten that wrong though.... I'm not infallible.

He has the best overall package from where I'm standing...

I think I've said it many a time that I can't take to Hayley - One is never going to be as enthusiastic about someone you don't take too. Doesn't make anything else I've said less valid though and it's just as much a reaction to the overhypedness of her performances.

If you can put your hand on your heart and say you are entirely fair in all your assessments of the performances and not at all swayed by anything about their personalities etc( or the fact they are not Hayley your favourite) then I salute you all. But if Hayley or any other one of them is your favourite then you are already biased.

Love it!

If Kieron went Daniella would probably get my vote assuming she does a good routine.

I never doubted it Strictly, just wondering if we are talking about the same package.

I wish I had someone to drool over this year as well (I miss Donal).

I don't think anyone has ever made that claim. I think it's pretty well established that fans of a contestant are not unbiased at all (by the very nature that they are fans.

I keep saying, I like them all, but Kieron is starting to really steal my heart now, so I can't see anything wrong with his performances anymore. I'm definitely wearing rose tinted glasses now (and although I knew Danny's performance was better, I wasn't entirely unhappy with the fact that he lost the hat). Sorry Danny fans.

I think it's just nice to know that not all of your criticism of Hayley is purely based on the merits of her ice skating.