Disagreeing with the judges, or saying someone is over-marked, is not implying that the judges don't know what they're doing.

We are not stuck with a choice only between agreeing with the judges vs saying they don't know what they're doing or that they're lying or that they've been "taken in" or any of the other things that have been used to imply that there's something questionable about disagreeing with the judges.

This week, the same mistake is being made in a different form when people who disagree with the judges take it further and say the judges are "manipulating" the results or similar.

I'm thinking of his package as in skating skills, good looks and charmingness (okay, not a word.) What on earth did you think I meant?!

And I miss Donal tooooo.

Because this week it was all about the prop and for use of the prop I thought Daniella and Matthew's routine as a whole was a more wow performance than Hayley and Dan's who could have used their prop more excitingly and riskily but didn't - they played it safe so it lacked something.
And I still think Danny in particular was better than either and was sorry to see him go although glad Kieron is still there.
Next week it's about the skating again so i'll reserve judgement til I see who does that well.

Yes I can see the difference in these two points, and I agree believing that the judges are overmarking is not the same as stating that judges somehow manipulate the leader board.

However, the point about overmarking and manipulation (to somehow fix the result) has also been made in relationship to Hayley in previous weeks. I don't think you will disagree with me on that point.

This week the point has been made in relationship to Daniella (overmarking and manipulation).

Now, I'm sure that some people who previously defended Hayley on the overmarking and manipulation claim may now also accuse the judges of overmarking and manipulation in Daniella's case. However, vice versa, people who were accusing the judges of overmarking and manipulating the leader board in favour of Hayley, are now defending the judges with regards to Daniella.

As icedragon (sorry couldn't resist it) said in a different context, it swings in roundabouts.

How about at the same level, which is where the so-called skating judges placed them this week?


It's not true that Daniella did no skating.

No and I was making a general point rather than aimed at you - more at the ones for whom Hayley can do wrong.

Totally with you on Kieron and Danny - I missed the main show and couldn't believe it when I got back to see them both in the skate off. I was sort of willing Danny to lose the hat but then when I watched the main show I felt very guilty as Danny's performance was fantastic and my fave of the night.

Daniella was my favourite at the start but she had a few weeks which weren't good which is when Kieron took over.

But I still don't think much of Hayley's skating

I couldn't possibly comment, but I'm really sorry I doubted you for one moment.

Lets's have Donal and Florentine back, please!!!!! He would wipe the floor with all of them. I really thought he was very yummy.

Fair enough. For someone who isn't a fan, I should just shut up and get an easier life.

BTW, I agree with you about Danny and Kieron, what a skate off. I was so gobsmacked.

I really hope Kieron makes it into the final now.

But where's the fun in that?

Kieron FTW

Yes, Donal was amazing, in all ways. I just loved him. And Flo -- miss her!

Ah the Donuts - those were the days.
Donal was my favourite over all the series and the only one I was truly fanatical about.

I'm only now realising how great Ray was. Last series I just blanked him out because I knew he was the only person stopping Donal from taking it, and I was right.

I miss the Donuts! Remember we got a mention from Donal's wife in some magazine!

Ray was an amazingly talented skater although strangely I can't remember a single one of his routines. I remember Donal's though!

Yes and it's the only time in my life I ever bought said magazine!

Yep Donal rocked **puts rose-tinted glasses on** and last year was so much better than this year. Who was Ray by the way, don't quite remember him. Where there any other contestants last year at all, funny that I didn't see any

I can! I particularly loved Canned Heat, but even his very first skate to Mmm Bop was better than anything I've seen this series.
I never really got the Donal love, myself.

Originally Posted by The Swampster:
“I can! I particularly loved Canned Heat, but even his very first skate to Mmm Bop was better than anything I've seen this series.
I never really got the Donal love, myself.”

Ah then you've missed out on something very special. I wonder if the Donal appreciation thread holds the record for most posts in an appreciation thread ever. It was in the several thousands.

Ray was good but was so good at the start he really had nowhere much to go. Will take another look now I don't have the Donal love blinding me.

Edited to add

Have watched those and yep he is definitely the best ever on DOI. He did a gorgeous one foot step sequence with slaloms and a 3 turn and beautiful alternating outside 3's. Fantastic!

Funnily enough, I liked Ray's Mmmbop & You Make It Real, which are week 1 & 2 and then after that, totally blank. I do believe my Donal love became official during 80s week.

Do you agree that saying the judges are over-marking does not imply that the judges don't know what they're doing?

In the rest of your post, you seem to be sticking overmarking and manipulation together for some reason, as if people always said (or meant) overmarking and manipulation.

Unfortunately, when people say "overmarking" it's sometimes not clear whether they think only that the marks are too high (a disagreement with the judges' opinions) or whether they think the judges are giving higher marks than those same judges think are genuinely deserved (as a way to manipulate the result).


I haven't seen anyone defending the judges re Daniella by treating disagreement as dismissible because the judges are experts or Olympic skaters, or by saying disagreement implies the judges don't know what they're doing or are lying or have been taken in. (Not that it would surprise me if someone did (or had) as retaliation for what was said in other weeks.)

Was that the Blues Brothers one?

I don't think I could see anyone else after that either.

No it was when he wore pink and skated to Addicted to Love. I loved all his performances though.

Gosh, I leave the boards for an evening and miss out on a really interesting debate! Too many posts to quote, but overall, I think my views can be summed up as:-

I believe the skating judges are better able to judge skating quality than anyone else, mostly because of their experience and expertise, but also, as icedragon (I think) says, they are rink side and see much more than we can at home.

I don't believe there is any great conspiracy to make someone win, or someone go home, certainly not on the part of the judges.

I do believe that the judges are given some guidelines on how much emphasis they should put on different aspects of the performances, e.g. how important the required element should be etc.

I do believe that the show's producers and organisers do some things (editing of VTs, use of props week with its different marking guidelines just as examples) to try and increase the drama and that those things can influence have an effect on the leader board, whether because of the judges marks, or the public perception of contestants.

I do believe that Gary is probably the best skater at the moment, although I do think both Kieron and Hayley have improved a lot and are getting closer to him in that respect - haven't heard the experts views on that lately so I'm prepared to be proven wrong.

I do believe Danniella is the best charactor actor/actress out there.

I do believe Hayley is the best dancer.

I also believe that Kieron is probably the second best at each of skating, dancing and characterisation and therefore for me, he is the best overall package at the moment.

I believe that DoI can set whatever rules and guidelines they like to create a good entertainment show, however I reserve the right to criticise them if I don't like what they decide

Phew!! that was a long one ...if you read this far - congratulations on staying awake!

I believe! .....that since you've plumped for Kieron as best overall I'll go with what you say!

Particularly like your last point

Thank you...what would be the fun if we couldn't have a good moan?

I keep this short, because we are going round in circles. Sorry if my posts aren't entirely clear. Claims of overmarking and/or manipulation can be two separate things (if the manipulation is attributed to the position/clothes/song of the contestant). However, they can go together, if someone says that the judges were intentionally overmarking to fix the leaderboard, which is manipulation. My post was related to the latter.

My point was that both sides can be at fault, however your bit in bold implies that you think that Daniella supporters who now make the same claims as Hayley supporters are somewhow right (maybe I misunderstood you), because it is in retatalition to what was said in previous weeks (e.g. Hayley supporters start it, other supporters just follow).

I don't agree with that. If I find one thing annoying in a set of people, then I'm finding the same thing annoying in another set of people as well (sorry my notion of short is somewhat rather long.

Sorry just catching up. We definitely agree on that one Icedragon (yippieh). Donal was like Kieron for me, at the beginning I didn't even look at him or had any feelings for him. However I loved his Blues Brother routine and I was hooked.

By the way, I did like Ray's and Jess' performances as well, even as a Donal supporter


Good post! I particularly like the summary of the merits of each contestant.