...so the Moffat backlash has begun.

10 of 10

TwEeD.NK

15-04-2010

Originally Posted by lach doch mal:
“Yep me too, these stories are just good old romp stories, not to be taken too seriously. The wasp itself was pretty meh, but I loved the doctor and Donna's interaction and the references (I loved the Shakespear code though).”

And it has one of the funniest scenes ever: the detox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SzG-xOMz_c

Donna: It's a song - Mammy!? I don't know, Camptown Races?
The Doctor: Camptown Races !?
Donna: All right then, Towering Inferno?
The Doctor: It's a shock, a shock, I need a shock!
Donna: All right then, big shock coming up...

Brilliant

lach doch mal

15-04-2010

Originally Posted by TwEeD.NK:
“And it has one of the funniest scenes ever: the detox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SzG-xOMz_c

Donna: It's a song - Mammy!? I don't know, Camptown Races?
The Doctor: Camptown Races !?
Donna: All right then, Towering Inferno?
The Doctor: It's a shock, a shock, I need a shock!
Donna: All right then, big shock coming up...

Brilliant ”

Thanks

. I need to watch that again (shame I haven't got it on DVD, must get it

. I loved the whole Doctor/Donna series. They were so great together.

johnnysaucepn

15-04-2010

I loved the Unicorn and the Wasp - not great sci-fi, but no pretence of taking it seriously at all. The 'revealing the murderer' scene was also brilliant.

Shakespeare Code I'm not so fussed on - I liked the idea of a race who literally have power in words, but most of the execution was pretty weak and unoriginal.

crazzyaz7

15-04-2010

Originally Posted by lach doch mal:
“I wonder if you got me and (maybe even Mandyxxx) wrong. I generally agree with you that if you are given freedom that you should be able to produce very different stories. However, it's easier to see that you produce similar stuff if you produce 4 or 6 episodes for one series than when you produce 6 episodes over 5 or 6 series. As an example, when I was writing my PhD, I wrote each single chapter as a paper and tried to publish it. When it came to putting the whole thing together, I realised that a lot of my introductions were quite similar and I had to change it (despite the fact that my individual papers might have been good enough to publish). So RTD as the producer of the first 5 series probably had a better idea that his stories had to be different, because he produced them for his story arc and for his vision of Dr Who. On the other hand, Moff was just writing the occasional story, which could have led him to use similar ideas.

It goes both ways really, for those people who are singing Moffs praises after only two episodes, I would have to say, wait until he delivered the whole series. Vice versa, I would advise people who think that he is producing the same stuff and is boring, to wait until we see him deliver a full series as the frontman.”

I was particularly talking about the bit where you said "maybe you use similar topics/themes because they fit in with the overall arc" and Mandy said "given that he was writing to someone else's story arcs" which is why i waflled on about the whole Moff having more freedom on what he was able to write...because i would argue it would be the other way round, that in one series, your more lileky to get similar type of stories than you are over 5 series'....because you want to set up a theme/arc for the series....but it was was RTD's versitility that made series one so refreshing to most programmes I had ever seen....after I had seen Rose, I didn't know what to expect from End of the World obviously, and then came Aliens of London which was very different...and then Long Game, so I had no idea what to expect from the likes of Boom Town and the finale...so it was nice, and within that obviously you had the other writers too who gave it that different feel as well. I just feel that Moff had brillaint ideas, which got a liitle bogged down with repititious themes. But this doesn't mean I am writing him off, its just that I have just got used to seeing versitility in Doctor Who (including classic series), and there was just that niggle that we may not end up getting that from series 5, and obviously the Eleventh Hour didn't help. I just think that he is a man with so many ideas...its a shame that he is limiting himself by reusing his previous clever ideas. I just feel that the Library two parter could have been so much more if it hadn't had have of the themes he has used in the past...because it just felt like he was celebrating his work, rather than telling a new story. So that is why I was arguing that he wasn't reusing those themes because he was trying to fit it with the series arc...he wasn't, the only reason he used them was because he wanted too...and that is fine, but often than not, RTD is criticised for the very same thing...yet many seem happy with Moff literally repeating himself...like his catchphrases

I wasn't having a go at you or Mandy, and I apologise if it came across as that, I was just arguing why I feel that Moff, out of all the writers in the last five years had more opportunity to write four brand new stories. I mean if someone said that Gareth Roberts stories in Doctor Who are the same, I would say yes they are, but that isn't his fault, RTD is to blame for that, he even rewrote most of UATW....and I would use the SJA stories to show how versitile Gareth Roberts can be. But with Moff, not so much....only example is the Beast Below. Like i said in the end, even if he does give every story to be the same way...and i don't mean the arcs, because that is a different subject all together.....I won't hate him for it, but probably just won't enjoy it as much, which will be a shame, but not end of the world.....we don't always get what we want...

tinny

15-04-2010

I have the opposite view , I got scared-smilies, was amused- Liz ten, was heart warmed-Amy helping the dr
and entertained and it was a great story and Matt is da man , I loved Tennant/Eccleston(less)and T davies stories mostly but it got too sad towards the end especially the specials anyway Moffatt and Matt and Ms Amy has cheered it up for a saturday night 's viweing and some monsters , looking 4ward to daleks and churchill kicking ass ax

andy1231

15-04-2010

I think its a bit too early for people to make judgments on Mr Moffat. Giving my own two pennysworth on the new series I would say that Matt & Gillian are both very good, Matt I think will particularly grow into the role. I 'm not sure about the new Tardis exterior but quite like the interior but the one thing I am sure about is the new version of the theme. I HATE IT. I think it's the worst version of the new series of Who so far.

lach doch mal

15-04-2010

Originally Posted by crazzyaz7:
“I was particularly talking about the bit where you said "maybe you use similar topics/themes because they fit in with the overall arc" and Mandy said "given that he was writing to someone else's story arcs" which is why i waflled on about the whole Moff having more freedom on what he was able to write...because i would argue it would be the other way round, that in one series, your more lileky to get similar type of stories than you are over 5 series'....because you want to set up a theme/arc for the series....but it was was RTD's versitility that made series one so refreshing to most programmes I had ever seen....after I had seen Rose, I didn't know what to expect from End of the World obviously, and then came Aliens of London which was very different...and then Long Game, so I had no idea what to expect from the likes of Boom Town and the finale...so it was nice, and within that obviously you had the other writers too who gave it that different feel as well. I just feel that Moff had brillaint ideas, which got a liitle bogged down with repititious themes. But this doesn't mean I am writing him off, its just that I have just got used to seeing versitility in Doctor Who (including classic series), and there was just that niggle that we may not end up getting that from series 5, and obviously the Eleventh Hour didn't help. I just think that he is a man with so many ideas...its a shame that he is limiting himself by reusing his previous clever ideas. I just feel that the Library two parter could have been so much more if it hadn't had have of the themes he has used in the past...because it just felt like he was celebrating his work, rather than telling a new story. So that is why I was arguing that he wasn't reusing those themes because he was trying to fit it with the series arc...he wasn't, the only reason he used them was because he wanted too...and that is fine, but often than not, RTD is criticised for the very same thing...yet many seem happy with Moff literally repeating himself...like his catchphrases

I wasn't having a go at you or Mandy, and I apologise if it came across as that, I was just arguing why I feel that Moff, out of all the writers in the last five years had more opportunity to write four brand new stories. I mean if someone said that Gareth Roberts stories in Doctor Who are the same, I would say yes they are, but that isn't his fault, RTD is to blame for that, he even rewrote most of UATW....and I would use the SJA stories to show how versitile Gareth Roberts can be. But with Moff, not so much....only example is the Beast Below. Like i said in the end, even if he does give every story to be the same way...and i don't mean the arcs, because that is a different subject all together.....I won't hate him for it, but probably just won't enjoy it as much, which will be a shame, but not end of the world.....we don't always get what we want...”

I didn't think you had a go at me at all

, no need to apologise for voicing your opinion

. I quite like these kinds of discussions, because I can honestly see where you are coming from. I certainly don't want it to get too predictable, because that would be so :yawn:.

I must admit, I hardly know who wrote which story - I know RTD wrote Midnight, and I do know after reading the forum that Moff wrote The empty child etc. etc. As I said before, RTD has produced some excellent stuff and I'm sure he has produced some duffers (and in the end the doctor became a bit too emotional and human for my liking). When Moff took over, I was happy because we got another sci-fi fan, who loves Dr Who, and can write good stories. I'm still not sure if he can take care of the whole series as a frontman (although I loved Press Gang, and I think he was the writer and frontman for that). I can also see, as you pointed out, that Moff does reuse some of his ideas, whether this was due to the fact that he just wrote single stories or because he lacks imagination remains to be seen

. I also agree with you (I think you said that, otherwise apologies) that TBB was a departure from his previous stories.

washboard

16-04-2010

And there's a subtext I didn't see!

I joined in the discussion about the last episode because I thought the episode itself had a lot of subtexts, allegories, satire and other references.

I was drawn to the epsiode because of the 'personal moral dilemma' angle, but appreciated the political/democracy subtext. Some of the comments on the discussion abou the episode made me think even more about the 'moral dilemma' angle. And the responsibilities and burdens of 'the authorities'. Among other points.

I thought it was a a fascinating and thought-provoking discussion, even at the points when I felt that some of the things I had said were being misunderstood or misrepresented.

Now I find that there was a 'who it was wot wrote it (Moffat v RTD)' subtext too

.

TBH, I find that simultaneously explains some of the things I didn't understand about the discussion, and takes away from it a bit

. It's very sad to think that some of the arguments might have been coloured by the Moffat v RTD subtext. They were such good arguments (in the 'debate' context).

And, that subtext makes me annoyed that my innocent name-checking of the writer of TBB may have been misconstrued (misunderstood, misrepresented etc).

However, as far as analysing stories and themes and repetitions is concerned, I do remember that exam questions on literature often ran along the lines of: "Considering the work of x, he/she had a particular interest in the themes of y and z. Discuss, using examples from two or more of his/her plays/stories/poems".

If I could time travel back to my school/college days, I would kill for the opportunity to use some of the Doctor Who episodes to answer a question like that!! (Depending on the theme, of course)

CAMERA OBSCURA

16-04-2010

Quote:
“washboard

Now I find that there was a 'who it was wot wrote it (Moffat v RTD)' subtext too .

It's very sad to think that some of the arguments might have been coloured by the Moffat v RTD subtext. They were such good arguments (in the 'debate' context).”

I personally don’t think that posters ‘confusion’ over the episode was part of a SM vs RTD subtext, for example I’m a fan of both writers but many things in TBB didn’t add up for me, regardless of explanations within the episode and especially regardless of who wrote the episode.

I think the only time the SM vs RTD thing has come into the discussion is when some posters, myself included, think that if any other writer except SM had written TBB it certainly wouldn’t have been classed as intelligent sci-fi by some, in fact the points raised by some, myself included, would have more than likely have been raised by the same posters if SM hadn’t had written the episode. Can you imagine the cries of ‘STAR WARS’ rip off by the same posters if RTD had written the ‘mouth of the beast ‘scene, believe me it would have happened, or if he had written the hit the button ending, regardless of context within the story. Can you imagine the uproar if RTD had come up with multi coloured daleks!!!

I’ve never understood the small element of sci-fi fandom that takes it personal when they don’t like what a certain writer does, then that writer becomes an obsessive vendetta target for attack. I don’t like BSG, for example, I loved the original when I was a kid, should I have an almost nut job dislike of the creator and writer of the new shows, and mention every time I can in the BSG threads, well no that would be ridiculous and childish behaviour for an adult, but it is that element, especially, within sci-fi and which has been more than prevalent within these Who threads for years that I just don’t get, I find it rather sad if the truth be told. (Im not implying yourself in that by the way)

Anyway I’m waffling, what I’m saying is that there have been two discussions going on at the same time. Posters that thought things didn’t add up in TBB (with no SM vs RTD sub context) and a separate ‘if any other writer had written TBB’ discussion.

Just my two cents I hope you understand, plus it gave me an excuse to have a 5 min skive

IvanIV

16-04-2010

Originally Posted by crazzyaz7:
“I'm not saying he had too, and i doubt they were commisioned because they were different to the other episodes in the series.....they were commisioned because it was by Moff....i think the only times he was asked of specific things were asked to put Jack into the story (but he gave him his own backstory, not RTD) and writing a Doctor-lite strory for series 3.....if he had been more controlled about what to write, or that it should be different to what the rest of the series was like, then they wouldn't have faced the problem of the Library Two parter having similar themes to Turn Left....even RTD had intially given Donna children, that is how similar the clash became....so it was definitely nothing about producing different stories from rest of the series. I'm saying that as he had free reign to do the hell as he wanted....with four stories all we got were very very similar themes...no other reason than because he liked using them, I doubt it was because he ran out of ideas, no more so because he loved those ideas of his....so used them again and again. And like I said, look at RTD's first six stories....you'll find them all very different to each other.....

That is what I liked about the beast below, is that for once, since the Empty Child, Moff was stopping the overt self-referencing...and diving into the unknown again.”

I did not mean that he was supposed to write them to be different from the rest in the series, just that with one/two episodes in series and his own writing style, they were different from the rest and contributed to the diversity. He did not have to worry about his episodes to be diverse from each other, so apparently he had always chosen his favourite topics. Having said that I did expect more from the library episodes, I was disappointed. Now it's different, he has to write more episodes, he's in charge of the whole series, there are new tasks for him. And even if one can see similarities in the first episode with his other work, it still means nothing, if the other episodes are different.

Dai13371

16-04-2010

Originally Posted by CAMERA OBSCURA:
“

I personally don’t think that posters ‘confusion’ over the episode was part of a SM vs RTD subtext, for example I’m a fan of both writers but many things in TBB didn’t add up for me, regardless of explanations within the episode and especially regardless of who wrote the episode.

I think the only time the SM vs RTD thing has come into the discussion is when some posters, myself included, think that if any other writer except SM had written TBB it certainly wouldn’t have been classed as intelligent sci-fi by some, in fact the points raised by some, myself included, would have more than likely have been raised by the same posters if SM hadn’t had written the episode. Can you imagine the cries of ‘STAR WARS’ rip off by the same posters if RTD had written the ‘mouth of the beast ‘scene, believe me it would have happened, or if he had written the hit the button ending, regardless of context within the story. Can you imagine the uproar if RTD had come up with multi coloured daleks!!!

I’ve never understood the small element of sci-fi fandom that takes it personal when they don’t like what a certain writer does, then that writer becomes an obsessive vendetta target for attack. I don’t like BSG, for example, I loved the original when I was a kid, should I have an almost nut job dislike of the creator and writer of the new shows, and mention every time I can in the BSG threads, well no that would be ridiculous and childish behaviour for an adult, but it is that element, especially, within sci-fi and which has been more than prevalent within these Who threads for years that I just don’t get, I find it rather sad if the truth be told. (Im not implying yourself in that by the way)

Anyway I’m waffling, what I’m saying is that there have been two discussions going on at the same time. Posters that thought things didn’t add up in TBB (with no SM vs RTD sub context) and a separate ‘if any other writer had written TBB’ discussion.

Just my two cents I hope you understand, plus it gave me an excuse to have a 5 min skive”

Excellent post, agree on all points re Doctor Who. As for BSG, Starbuck is the Faceman for gawds sake, not some blonde bint.

Dorabella14

16-04-2010

Now I understand why I got out of all English Lit classes at school - take a good classic, then ruin it with analysis.
Everybody is being far too geeky, far too serious! Lighten up!

Every Dr Who episode is infinitely better than whatever else is served up for kids on TV early on Sat nights (with the exception of Merlin, panned by the critics, which acquired a huge following, including me).

All Dr Who needs is good acting from actors who will really throw themselves into their parts. No problems there with Matt and Amy. The scripts are fine - it's just the directing and editing that has to improve. With a bit of digital remastering this could be done, and a fantastic DVD could result.

I'm happy to watch the next episode, having just about recovered from the torturing of the star whale for four centuries from the last one.

Rooks

16-04-2010

There seems to be a lot of hate on this thread, not for Moffat, but for each other.

Moffat backlash? I'm not sure. I'll confess that this is the first time I've visited this forum since Sunday morning so I might have missed it. From talking to people I know, that watch the show, I don't think many of them have the first clue who RTD or Steven Moffat is so they don't see any difference other than a new Doctor and Companion. I think it's only the fans that really notice changes in writers.

I've seen a small backlash against Matt Smith simply because he isn't David Tennant, which is a shame but to be expected. People get overly attached to the characters and actors. Doctor Who is like James Bond in that respect because even though the character is the same, it feels like a new character and people take views on that.

crazzyaz7

16-04-2010

Originally Posted by lach doch mal:
“I didn't think you had a go at me at all, no need to apologise for voicing your opinion. I quite like these kinds of discussions, because I can honestly see where you are coming from. I certainly don't want it to get too predictable, because that would be so :yawn:.

I must admit, I hardly know who wrote which story - I know RTD wrote Midnight, and I do know after reading the forum that Moff wrote The empty child etc. etc. As I said before, RTD has produced some excellent stuff and I'm sure he has produced some duffers (and in the end the doctor became a bit too emotional and human for my liking). When Moff took over, I was happy because we got another sci-fi fan, who loves Dr Who, and can write good stories. I'm still not sure if he can take care of the whole series as a frontman (although I loved Press Gang, and I think he was the writer and frontman for that). I can also see, as you pointed out, that Moff does reuse some of his ideas, whether this was due to the fact that he just wrote single stories or because he lacks imagination remains to be seen. I also agree with you (I think you said that, otherwise apologies) that TBB was a departure from his previous stories.”

I was aware when I started watching....because I was already an RTD fan...and knew of Moff's work too. But I never went in thinking "oh I bet it will be like this when so and so writes it" I just watched and enjoyed....untill I cam on the internet that is...and the way some people would attack RTD using Moff...fair enough that they prefer the others work to another...but sometimes it was nothing more than a cheap attack..and the funny thing was that mostly they would point out something that they didn't like in RTD's story...only to praise it...or ignore it in Moff's story. Which in my opion is unfair....people can critices and not like something...fine...but at least be consistant! And i should point out that I don't hate Moff's work or anything, its just by the time the Libraray two parter aired, his same style was getting a little predictable, but with the Beast Below...I know now that I shouldn't have worried. I'm happy to admit that.

Originally Posted by CAMERA OBSCURA:
“
I personally don’t think that posters ‘confusion’ over the episode was part of a SM vs RTD subtext, for example I’m a fan of both writers but many things in TBB didn’t add up for me, regardless of explanations within the episode and especially regardless of who wrote the episode.

I think the only time the SM vs RTD thing has come into the discussion is when some posters, myself included, think that if any other writer except SM had written TBB it certainly wouldn’t have been classed as intelligent sci-fi by some, in fact the points raised by some, myself included, would have more than likely have been raised by the same posters if SM hadn’t had written the episode. Can you imagine the cries of ‘STAR WARS’ rip off by the same posters if RTD had written the ‘mouth of the beast ‘scene, believe me it would have happened, or if he had written the hit the button ending, regardless of context within the story. Can you imagine the uproar if RTD had come up with multi coloured daleks!!!

I’ve never understood the small element of sci-fi fandom that takes it personal when they don’t like what a certain writer does, then that writer becomes an obsessive vendetta target for attack. I don’t like BSG, for example, I loved the original when I was a kid, should I have an almost nut job dislike of the creator and writer of the new shows, and mention every time I can in the BSG threads, well no that would be ridiculous and childish behaviour for an adult, but it is that element, especially, within sci-fi and which has been more than prevalent within these Who threads for years that I just don’t get, I find it rather sad if the truth be told. (Im not implying yourself in that by the way)

Anyway I’m waffling, what I’m saying is that there have been two discussions going on at the same time. Posters that thought things didn’t add up in TBB (with no SM vs RTD sub context) and a separate ‘if any other writer had written TBB’ discussion.

Just my two cents I hope you understand, plus it gave me an excuse to have a 5 min skive”

Yep agree with everything there.

Originally Posted by IvanIV:
“I did not mean that he was supposed to write them to be different from the rest in the series, just that with one/two episodes in series and his own writing style, they were different from the rest and contributed to the diversity. He did not have to worry about his episodes to be diverse from each other, so apparently he had always chosen his favourite topics. Having said that I did expect more from the library episodes, I was disappointed. Now it's different, he has to write more episodes, he's in charge of the whole series, there are new tasks for him. And even if one can see similarities in the first episode with his other work, it still means nothing, if the other episodes are different.”

But that is what got me a little worried about series five....that even if you ignore that whole Moff being the same over the last five years...there was always a variety in each series...for example episode one wasn't like episode two and so on...so when I saw the Eleventh Hour, and it feeling like another greatest hits album, I got a little worried...but happy to admit I'm wrong

Originally Posted by Rooks:
“There seems to be a lot of hate on this thread, not for Moffat, but for each other.

Moffat backlash? I'm not sure. I'll confess that this is the first time I've visited this forum since Sunday morning so I might have missed it. From talking to people I know, that watch the show, I don't think many of them have the first clue who RTD or Steven Moffat is so they don't see any difference other than a new Doctor and Companion. I think it's only the fans that really notice changes in writers.

I've seen a small backlash against Matt Smith simply because he isn't David Tennant, which is a shame but to be expected. People get overly attached to the characters and actors. Doctor Who is like James Bond in that respect because even though the character is the same, it feels like a new character and people take views on that.”

Your right they don't...often than not...talking to a casual viewer...they will say they liked that story with the angels, or that one with the scarecrows, ot that one with one that everyone is trapped on a bus...rather than saying things like how they love the stories by Moffat or Whithouse or Russell....most don't care as long as they have Doctor Who on a staurday to watch...

lach doch mal

16-04-2010

Originally Posted by crazzyaz7:
“I was aware when I started watching....because I was already an RTD fan...and knew of Moff's work too. But I never went in thinking "oh I bet it will be like this when so and so writes it" I just watched and enjoyed....untill I cam on the internet that is...and the way some people would attack RTD using Moff...fair enough that they prefer the others work to another...but ...”

I realised that coming on the forum can be a bad thing. I love discussing things, and I don't mind people disagreeing with me. However, if someone continuously attacks someone for the same reasons, it becomes very tedious

(I'm obviously not referring to you). I was surprised that there was such an anti-RTD backlash. Surely, he brought back Dr Who, and it's been a good 5 years, shouldn't we all be happy? I'm looking forward to this new doctor and companion and I hope they will entertain me as much as the ones in the past.

poppycod

16-04-2010

Originally Posted by Rooks:
“There seems to be a lot of hate on this thread, not for Moffat, but for each other.

Moffat backlash? I'm not sure. I'll confess that this is the first time I've visited this forum since Sunday morning so I might have missed it. From talking to people I know, that watch the show, I don't think many of them have the first clue who RTD or Steven Moffat is so they don't see any difference other than a new Doctor and Companion. I think it's only the fans that really notice changes in writers.

I've seen a small backlash against Matt Smith simply because he isn't David Tennant, which is a shame but to be expected. People get overly attached to the characters and actors. Doctor Who is like James Bond in that respect because even though the character is the same, it feels like a new character and people take views on that.”

Quite right Rooks.
The backlash is, of course, not coming from general viewers but from certain sections of fandom with their own agendas.

WelshNige

16-04-2010

Originally Posted by poppycod:
“Quite right Rooks.
The backlash is, of course, not coming from general viewers but from certain sections of fandom with their own agendas. ”

You shouldn't judge people with genuine criticisms by your own standards....

poppycod

18-04-2010

Disappointed to see another thread calling for RTD to return.

Surely the backlash has now begun?

btw RTD approved (and often wrote) far more dodgy and uninspiring scripts than the under-rated VOTD.

JohnFlawbod

18-04-2010

Originally Posted by poppycod:
“Disappointed to see another thread calling for RTD to return.

Surely the backlash has now begun?

btw RTD approved (and often wrote) far more dodgy and uninspiring scripts than the under-rated VOTD.”

Are you still here hawking your laboursome and pointless wares around the forum then poppycock? Surely it's time for you to find a new hobby: Ashes to Ashes perhaps (officially not as good as Life on Mars), Ooh, why did they axe The Bill, it could have been Z-Cars, or possibly...Leonard Rossiter would have been my choice for Doctor...oh...is he dead then? Hmmm...

Fudd

18-04-2010

I agree that there have been worse episodes of New Who that Victory of the Daleks, but it wasn't the strongestof episodes. If people want to say that, it doesn't mean they have an anti-Moffat agenda.

10 of 10