A lot of its down to high expectations, not just because of the RTD era but because the majority of people think that Moffats episodes in the RTD era were absolutely excellent.

Personally I don't think either of the first 2 episodes of this series have been up to the standard of his other 4 stories, especially not the Beast Below, so I would say that I am finding myself disappointed. TBB has grown on me but its taken watching it again to do that, I just wasn't expecting it to be as hard to follow as it was and things.

It's the old chestnut that gives Sci-Fi fans a bad rep.

I watched The Eleventh Hour. Everything made sense. A few little cut corners for the sake of expediency but to be honest anyone with reasonable intelligence and who is prepared to examine the little flaws should be able to fill in the blanks themselves without it having to be spelt out.

As for Steven Moffat, we've only seen two eps, FFS! Assuming they were shot in broadcast order (yes I know, so I shall insert this -->) more or less, then he's still finding his feet in terms of how to get the best of the actors and their characters who, so far, we have seen in two eps so far! We need to watch the characters develop before we can make any sort of informed opinion. Its far too early yet.

I suspect that the OP is trying to start a fire of backlash where there is currently a half-spent match alight.

If you read the OP you will see that I am defending Moffat and just raising the questions of whether there is a backlash at all, and from where it is originating.

True

However the people in group two are the ones that are getting their knickers in a twist.
How can you make that kind of judgement based on the first two epiesodes?

How much did MS have to do in his first story compared to DT in his first full story "The Christams Invasion." As I remember it he spent a good part of it in bed. he had become a secondary character for most of that story.
You can't judge characterisation comparing three series and specials against two episodes. That's like comparinng one of the 3 hour LOTR films against an 30 second trailer of another film.
As for deciding something is shallow compared to what it was after two episodes that is just absurd.
I haven't read what those RTD fans have said but I can imagine. they hated the eating and the fish fingers and custard stuff, but conveniently forget the wheelie bin thing in "Rose." Of the two attempts at humour I'll take the weird food choices every time. I the wheelie bin wasn't bad enoughthe "comical" burping has to go down as one of the saddest and pathetic things ever in the history of the series.

If the show had taken a retrograde step then IMO it is for the better. RTD made the show as much as, sometimes more about the companion than the title character. Moffatt has (so far) put The Doctor back in the forefront again.

Don't agree with that at all, both episodes so far have had much more to do with Amy than the Doctor.

This is just another example of SM being praised and RTD being criticised when in reality they're both doing exactly the same thing....

Having just watched Points Of View tonight it seems the only problem people are having is with the Theme Tune which doesn't look as if it's going to change in a hurry. If that's the only thing to be moaned about then I'd say that's a result. Moffat is otherwise doing a good job.

Your right, there is no backlash against SM at all. In fact I think there has been more positivity about the opening two episodes than was expected by people given the major changes that have taken place. There are some fans of Tennant who haven't moved on yet, true, and there are some people who for a whole range of reasons may not have been keen on one or both of the episodes to date, but to suggest some kind of backlash is absurd.

It comes across as though the OP thinks no one is allowed to say anything negative about SM's work at all.

It's easy to start criticising Moffat (and TBB especially) but then, having watched TBB, I thought back PoTD and I realised how very good it (TBB) was in comparison to that tripe (PoTD).

1. Purchase Press Gang Dvds written by Steven Moffat.
2. Watch and learn about big story arcs..

Just because some is unexplained doesn't mean it is a plot hole..

3 Do your own thinking...

You're quite right. Even though I thought last night's episode wasn't quite as good as the first one, I'm not panicking by any means. I thought Season 4 got of to a ropey start but it picked up a lot better towards the end and resulted in a very good Season Finale. I suppose you have to face the fact that when making a 13 part season there's always going to be one or two stories you're not going to entirely like or fall below the standard you expect. As For Steven Moffat, you're right, he's not invulnerable to criticism. He's made a bad move on the Theme Tune but there again, maybe we should flip it the other way and say he was just trying to do something different, it just hasn't worked out. He can always adjust it next season if he wishes. He's made a lot of changes, most of them good, but I think the best time to make a proper judgement is after the series has finished then we'll all have a clearer idea of what he can do to make the show even better.

The creation of this thread and your original post demonstrates a level of hypocrisy I had hitherto suspected but not yet had confirmed as well as a complete lack of self-understanding...

...just watch and enjoy instead of attempting this bizarre conversion process flecked with bigotry and a fundamental misunderstanding of exactly what Doctor Who is and has always been about as a TV programme...

...you do know it's just a TV programme, right?

Totally agree about Wallander (sorry but it beats Who)

It never ceases to amaze me how you see the same names on this forum year after year slagging off Doctor Who, it just makes me wonder "Why are you still watching?" Everyone may have a bitch every now and again about an episode they don't like, but some are just NEVER happy and its episode and episode, series after series!
My point being (to make this post relevant to this thread) is that it doesn't matter who the showrunner is, RTD or the Moff, or whoever may come along, some like nothing better that to find the negative in everything, and continue to put themselves through, on a regular basis, what they see as bad TV. This is of course, their choice and it's their life, but I don't even pretend to try and understand why they do it and if they find it that bad all the time, just stop watching!
.

To make this thread relevant to the OP you would need to crown poppycock Queen of all things Who...but then he would accuse you of having an agenda

Precisely. The only thing Moffat is 'doing wrong' is writing stories you actually have to pay attention to and think about in order to understand them, which apparently is too much effort for some people.

I withdraw the comment, the FWIW paragraph was a bit swamped by the negative comments that you were quoting, and as I went through the following posts and read the quoting of your quotes, the context of them changed (in my head) to statements of your opinion.

I humbly apologise for my gross error and throw myself on the mercy of the court for my incorrect and totally outrageous misinterpretation

No offence, but what a load of patronising claptrap

I think Doctor Who has been full of plot holes for years! Remember Earthshock/Ressurrection Of The Daleks etc?

Yes, I agree you do have to concentrate a lot, which isn't helpful after a few glasses of wine. You miss a lot of things when drunk which is why I had to watch it again this morning! lol!

Yes, there are a lot of people out there who do have nothing positive to say about any Episode of Who. Though last night's episode wasn't the best I did make the note on another thread that Matt Smith and Amy are quite good in the show still and the show retained the freshness from the first episode. It's taking a while to get used to all the changes, but I like them regardless of the fact perhaps this particular episode wasn't as good. Roll on The Daleks!

I think the Moffat backlash began, well, I'd say around 2 months before 'The Empty Child' aired...

It's more prominent now that he's been elevated to showrunner, but no showrunner in the history of the show has escaped ludicrous levels of criticism since the advent of organised fandom.

Par for the course, but Doctor Who fans are a very strange bunch...

Regards,

Cypher

I don't understand how Doctor Who has ever had a fandom really.

If you consider that everytime a new producer or showrunner comes in, the show makes a huge change in direction, from a show about a mysterious old man who triesn to educate about past events, to a broad sci-fi show, to an Earth based show about a team of alien investigators and thwarter, to an almost comedic adventures through time and space, to a show about hard sci-fi concepts like algorithms etc etc.

Each era has its own fans and wishes the show would go back to whatever format was their favourite, and attacks those who prefer a different style.

So baring this in mind, how did the show ever generate enough fans to maintain a fandom since, technically they're all fans of different iterations of the show and can't get on with it in its different state!

Old series fans were angry at RTD's era for the simple crime of not being like the original series and went on the offensive in any area they saw fit, and are now looking to Moffat to restore the days of yore, so its not like they're blameless at the minute.

It just makes the whole notion of Doctor Who "fans" congregating in one place a bit of a waste of time when everyone has their own agendas and won't be happy until everyone agrees with them.

The forums are a frustrating place at the moment

"I think the Moffat backlash began, well, I'd say around 2 months before 'The Empty Child' aired..."

Any evidence to support this bizarre theory?

I accept what you're trying to say but I don't think you should try tying every Who fan together with the same brush. Yes, there are those out there who are DT fans or RTD fans, some are even classic series fans. They will always have their opinions. I think the fact the new series has had such positive reaction is proof people are willing to accept change and I am as I said in my last post. I accept it's never gonna be perfect but we should be grateful we have show which has fans with varying ranges of opinion, that's why I like coming onto this forum and reading all the different views even if I don't agree with all of them.

What makes me laugh about comments like this is that people are forgetting that this is only two episodes into a new series with a new doctor, assistant and head honcho for crying out loud!

People are very quick to put down something new because they don't like it when things are a little different, but if they remain a little more open minded and give the series a chance they will probably grow to love it as much as they loved the last few years.

As for plot holes, like someone else said on this board already said, people can also be very quick to point out things that they don't yet understand and label it a plothole. As a Lost fan I've seen people do the same thing about that show over the last few years, simply because they are impatient to know what's going on. Something that does irk me is when people expect to be led down the garden path with shows like these, and forget that this is a Sci Fi show and as such is complex and very intricicately woven (or it is meant to be...)

The only thing I'd say to the naysayers is 1) stop for a moment 2) keep an open mind until we've reached at least episode 5 (which I consider a minimum acceptable time for a new Sci Fi show to find it's feet) and 3) just enjoy the show for what it is or isn't. For better or worse this show gets massive ratings and it's a gift that the BBC commission shows like this. Otherwise all we'd get is sports, total wipeout, graham norton and eastenders.

I do not like the storylines where Dr or Amy can hang outside of the TARDIS.
Hope that in future episodes it does not happen

Much like the Doctor and his other incarnations

What do you mean, "at the moment"? Forums are always a frustrating place, where everyone expresses opinions but portray them as facts, and anyone who disagrees in the slightest is wrong.