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Inclusion of Children in DW
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poppycod
14-04-2010
Originally Posted by Helbore:
“Because the only people who would like child characters - aside from children - are paedophiles? ”

Better ban kids tv at all then.
Se7enSe7en
14-04-2010
Originally Posted by phil solo:
“In your post first mentioning the Fear Forecasters there was no acknowledged awareness that they were in fact children.

In any event I would argue that neither epsiode cited was advised as family unfriendly or "not suitable for children" per se in fact to the contrary, the advice was simply that the episodes should be considered by parents beforehand and/or watched as a family rather than the (far more common these days) "plonk the kid down and use the boob tube as an unpaid babysitter" approach, i.e responsible, involved parenting rather than lazy indifference to what ones children are seeing.

You may, for personal reasons, have a particular sensitivity to what you perceive as cruelty or mean-spiritedness towards children in Who (and which you completely incorrectly, and with little apparent understanding of the term, characterize as a'paedophile agenda'), however I would contend that for all but a few families with children, no danger nor long-term damage was divined or experienced in the viewing, by their kids, of the episodes you cite.

Most kids enjoy a good, safe, scare. I think you're being misguidedly overprotective. Parental Paranoia can be more hazardous to childrens development than real life or fiction.”

I was aware the BBC fear forecasters were children. I just didn't think I'd have to explain exactly who they were. We're all grown ups here. If you don't know something, you should be able to find out for yourself, or ask for clarification. I just didn't think it was necessary information since it'd already been stated in the first post that I felt those episodes were not family friendly.

If you look on the fear forecaster reports for Blink, or The Empty Child or The Doctor Dances, I think there are notes suggesting parents tape the episodes and watch them with children during the day. Clearly, these episodes can't be watched without adult supervision. I don't consider it particularly family friendly to have to hold a child's hand through something. There's a good scare and there there's just nightmare fuel.

Originally Posted by clacker2005:
“In case anybody is wondering this thread originally had a different title which prompted some of the replies above.

Don't see the point of changing the title and leaving the thread personally, given that the original title was a cheap shot, evidently designed to provoke attention.”

No it wasn't.
neel
14-04-2010
This is all a bit Daily Mail eh?

Good lord, it shouldn't even be dignified with a response.
neel
14-04-2010
Originally Posted by Se7enSe7en:
“it is worrying what kind of audience that this kind of writing might potentially attract, if even by accident.”

Also this reminded me of a typically wise lyric from Dan Le Sac and Scroobius pip.

"Thou shall not think any man over 30 that plays with a child that is not there own is a paedophile, some people are just nice"

Not directly applicable, but you get the point.
talentedmonkey
14-04-2010
lets ban all children from appearing on TV and in films. Then we can have a black market of distributing old episodes of Blue Peter, Swap Shop, Runaround, cheggars plays pop, we have to be careful, anyone seeing an old video or DVD on our shelves which has children in it, will instantly brand us as Paedos resulting in lynch mobs stringing us up and burning our houses. It will also give the government and the "theres a paedo behind every bush" brigade something to ban file sharing in order to stop Paedophiles from watching children on thier computer screen.

I thought I had seen just about every stupid kind of thread going, but obviously not. This thread should be closed and deleted.
phil solo
14-04-2010
Originally Posted by Se7enSe7en:
“[..]
If you look on the fear forecaster reports for Blink, or The Empty Child or The Doctor Dances, I think there are notes suggesting parents tape the episodes and watch them with children during the day. Clearly, these episodes can't be watched without adult supervision. I don't consider it particularly family friendly to have to hold a child's hand through something. There's a good scare and there there's just nightmare fuel.
”

Watching as a family ('Adult supervision' if you will) does not mean having to hold a childs hand though, that's a bit of a straw man argument. It means sharing the experience in a reassuring context, e.g. by sitting with them in a daylight environment. If you really believe you have to physically hold your child's hand through the slightly more uncomfortable bits of Who then you're probably doing them a bit of a disservice in the long run by retarding their independence. Push the sofa away from the wall or give them a cushion to hide behind if it gets a bit intense, but sit nearby so they know they're safe.

(Nostalgically remembers as a small boy conflating images of Magic Roundabout (weekday teatimes), 'Classic' Who (Saturday teatimes), and those strange inverted Ski yoghurt pots they had in the '70s to generate many enjoyable 'nightmares' in which various fruit-flavoured Daleks chased Dougal, Florence et al and I round a fairground park )

Everyone has their own opinion as to what is and what isn't within the comfort zone of (their) children, but that wasn't your initial argument. Having been lambasted for your original thread title and assertions you seem now to have moved on to a different topic.

At which juncture, so will I.
David Waine
14-04-2010
Originally Posted by phil solo:
“ Those familiar with Dahl (Roald, not Sophie) and the Grimm tales in their un-Disneyfied, unsanitised form will be aware that such tales frequently revolve around much cruelty, nastyness and low-level terror involving children. These tales have a very strong narrative in which cruelty, deceit and consequences are clearly delineated, and even young children appreciate and respond positively to tales of jeopardy when the ending is upbeat and positive and the bad guys get their just desserts (we all love to see a villain get a pasting, no matter how young or old we are ”

Couldn't agree more - and you can throw the earlier Harry Potter books into the mix as well (the later ones are aimed more at a teen/young adult readership). Children have been watching Doctor Who from behind the sofa for nearly half a century now without being permanently traumatised. Children are a lot more resilient than many people seem to realise as long as the violence, horror etc, is presented in the right way (ie. fantasised, not too realistic or bloody). For what it's worth, I consider 'Blink' to be the scariest episode I can ever remember watching (and I have been an avid Who fan since episode one was originally transmitted). My own children are a bit too old now to be used as a yardstick, but I have friends with young children, none of whom were overly upset by it.

By the way, on the subject of 'santised Disney', that certainly applies to much of his work, but not to the original masterpiece, 'Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs'. Just watch it. That film has some seriously scary passages.
Mulett
14-04-2010
Glad to see DS has renamed this thread.
lach doch mal
14-04-2010
Even with the changed title, this thread doesn't make much sense. Are we really questionning that some of the Dr Who stories have used children actors and have been based around children stories? Dr Who was always aimed at a child audience, as such it's natural that children could and should play a part in it (the exclusion of children is more disturbing IMO, as the world is not an childless adult place). With regards to whether these childheavy episodes were suitable for young viewers, that's rather a weird point to make. There are other episodes without children, which were more scary than the ones with the children.

Dr Who is supposed to be scary, it's got a reputation for it. Children love it because of that.
Rorschach
14-04-2010
Umm, I want to know what the thread was called originally now.
Digital Sid
14-04-2010
Because, in the eyes of Moffat at least, it's a children's show.
chuffnobbler
14-04-2010
I'm as baffled as Rorscach. What was the original title?!

There have been kids in non-Moffat stories too. Runaway Bride has the kid pointing at the star. Fear Her (obviously). Utopia has the cute little Blue Peter kid. Children played some of the little blue people in The End of the World. Right back in Rose, Clive had a son.

Are we suggesting under 18s should be ruled out of DW in case a kiddiefiddler happens to watch?
wildbill_hicock
14-04-2010
Originally Posted by chuffnobbler:
“I'm as baffled as Rorscach. What was the original title?!

There have been kids in non-Moffat stories too. Runaway Bride has the kid pointing at the star. Fear Her (obviously). Utopia has the cute little Blue Peter kid. Children played some of the little blue people in The End of the World. Right back in Rose, Clive had a son.

Are we suggesting under 18s should be ruled out of DW in case a kiddiefiddler happens to watch? ”

Ridiculous: "The paedophile agenda".
Rorschach
14-04-2010
So to include any child in any programme, even if said child is wearing a dufflecoat and not a Primark bikini and is not engaged in any activity that could even be remotely said to be connected to sex means that the writer is catering to the paedophile audience.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha.....

The OP is either a Chris Morris level spoof genius or a moron.
crazzyaz7
14-04-2010
Originally Posted by Mulett:
“Glad to see DS has renamed this thread.”

But the thread is still bl**dy pointless....
MidnightFalcon
14-04-2010
Originally Posted by Se7enSe7en:
“Maybe I glazed over the part where you explained why only children with incurable diseases could be though compassionately enough of to be preserved for eternity?”

The computer wasn't built to save "children with incurable diseases" it was built to save it's creators daughter - who happened to be a child.
Se7enSe7en
14-04-2010
Originally Posted by phil solo:
“Watching as a family ('Adult supervision' if you will) does not mean having to hold a childs hand though, that's a bit of a straw man argument. It means sharing the experience in a reassuring context, e.g. by sitting with them in a daylight environment. If you really believe you have to physically hold your child's hand through the slightly more uncomfortable bits of Who then you're probably doing them a bit of a disservice in the long run by retarding their independence. Push the sofa away from the wall or give them a cushion to hide behind if it gets a bit intense, but sit nearby so they know they're safe.”

I'm sorry, you seem to believe I was being literal. I was using 'holding their hand through' the experience as a blanket term for the reassuring experience. If you have to create a reassuring experience at all, the episode is family unfriendly, since you wouldn't have to worry about it at all if the episode was family friendly.

Originally Posted by chuffnobbler:
“I'm as baffled as Rorscach. What was the original title?!

There have been kids in non-Moffat stories too. Runaway Bride has the kid pointing at the star. Fear Her (obviously). Utopia has the cute little Blue Peter kid. Children played some of the little blue people in The End of the World. Right back in Rose, Clive had a son.

Are we suggesting under 18s should be ruled out of DW in case a kiddiefiddler happens to watch? ”

It's not a case of children being in Doctor Who, but rather Children being used in episodes with adult themes, which a child would therefore be unable to watch alone. A lot of Moffat's episodes deal with dark themes and most of them, whether you as an individual agree or not, have been considered unsuitable for children watching without adult supervision. Using children in some contexts such as the 'The Empty Child' might make the episode feel more realistic because adult themes often affect children too, but out of the eight Moffat written episodes, seven include children. I just find that some what excessive and unnecessary.

Originally Posted by MidnightFalcon:
“The computer wasn't built to save "children with incurable diseases" it was built to save it's creators daughter - who happened to be a child.”

I didn't say that it was built to save children with incurable diseases. My problem was with it being built to save the creator's daughter...who happened to be a child. The point being that the daughter was specifically written to be a child, but why should have it been an any less compassionate or sympathetic motive for the creator to save his daughter were she not a child?

Originally Posted by Rorschach:
“So to include any child in any programme, even if said child is wearing a dufflecoat and not a Primark bikini and is not engaged in any activity that could even be remotely said to be connected to sex means that the writer is catering to the paedophile audience.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha.....

The OP is either a Chris Morris level spoof genius or a moron.”

I'm glad someone finally came to the conclusion that this might just be taking the piss out of all the stupid agendas that have been popping up.
Orri
14-04-2010
Originally Posted by Se7enSe7en:
“I didn't say that it was built to save children with incurable diseases. My problem was with it being built to save the creator's daughter...who happened to be a child. The point being that the daughter was specifically written to be a child, but why should have it been an any less compassionate or sympathetic motive for the creator to save his daughter were she not a child?



I'm glad someone finally came to the conclusion that this might just be taking the piss out of all the stupid agendas that have been popping up.”

You miss the point, the daughter had her memory preserved because she was incurable. The fact that after so many years she had not matured, either mentally or (pseudo)physically seems to edge things towards the idea that rather than some method of saving her life what has been done is a form of suspended animation. If she was ever transferred to a new organic body, or even a mechanical extension so she could interact with the real world, or perhaps now that there are other mind imprints she can interact with she might develop. However that would require an alteration of the programming which seems more focussed on preserving her as near as she was at the point she was transfered. All of that is covered in the simple decision to have her as a child, rather than a young adult or a grown woman. It's a form of shorthand that lets the writer get on with the show rather than stop the plot for a pointless bit of exposition. It was also briefly covered when one of the characters dies an a cruder version of the process is shown.

Thanks for pointing out that you are aware of the various "Agenda" threads in the past, which would indicate that you've been following this group for some time, and that your first post in your current incarnation may not have been your first post here.

And for what it's worth a "Gay Agenda" where it entails giving a high profile to gay issues and raising gay awareness sometimes to the detriment of the stories is not advocating breaking the law.
The word Paedophilia may have roots in classical language, but it's meaning involves the having sexual intercourse with meaning of the word love, rather than more innocent and acceptable versions as far as children are concerned.
Given that children of the age being included in the show exist in real life, it's a bit strange that up until recently they didn't exist in Dr Who, especially as they are some of the target audience of the show.
floopy123
14-04-2010
Moffat wanted to write the Dalek episode in this series but the head of BBC drama said "we want the Daleks to kill a lot of people" and Moffat said "can that include children?" and the BBC head of drama said "Stephen, we can't kill kids before nine pm." Moffat was so upset. He wanted to exterminate loads of kids. What a sicko!!!
chuffnobbler
14-04-2010
Originally Posted by Se7enSe7en:
“It's not a case of children being in Doctor Who, but rather Children being used in episodes with adult themes, which a child would therefore be unable to watch alone. A lot of Moffat's episodes deal with dark themes and most of them, whether you as an individual agree or not, have been considered unsuitable for children watching without adult supervision. Using children in some contexts such as the 'The Empty Child' might make the episode feel more realistic because adult themes often affect children too, but out of the eight Moffat written episodes, seven include children. I just find that some what excessive and unnecessary.”

Thanks for clarifying what this thread is meant to be about.

Children should not watch Doctor Who without supervision. Children should not be left with the telly as their babysitter. Doctor Who is not a children's programme, and adults must be aware that it contains "scary bits". Leaving a child to watch telly without supervision is extremely irresponsible and is lazy parenting.

When DW came back, the Charles Dickens episode was scary (it scared me), and there were some parents on the radio saying how awful it was that DW had caused their kids to have nightmares. The children in question should have been taken away from the parents with no further notice. It is wrong to leave kids to watch programmes unsupervised after approx 6pm. Kids telly ends at approx 6pm. Family telly comes next. Family telly should be watched as a family, not be unsupervised little uns.
Se7enSe7en
14-04-2010
Originally Posted by Orri:
“You miss the point, the daughter had her memory preserved because she was incurable. The fact that after so many years she had not matured, either mentally or (pseudo)physically seems to edge things towards the idea that rather than some method of saving her life what has been done is a form of suspended animation. If she was ever transferred to a new organic body, or even a mechanical extension so she could interact with the real world, or perhaps now that there are other mind imprints she can interact with she might develop. However that would require an alteration of the programming which seems more focussed on preserving her as near as she was at the point she was transfered. All of that is covered in the simple decision to have her as a child, rather than a young adult or a grown woman. It's a form of shorthand that lets the writer get on with the show rather than stop the plot for a pointless bit of exposition. It was also briefly covered when one of the characters dies an a cruder version of the process is shown.”

I understand that she was preserved because she was incurable and it was a form of suspended animation. Perhaps I need to watch the episode again though because I don't remember there ever being any mention of reanimating her, but rather simply allowing her to live peacefully in the program. She was programmed as a little girl because that's the way she had died, and that's how the grandfather remembered her. She could easily have been a young adult however, without any extra exposition because the exposition didn't really go beyond that the library was built for the daughter of the grandfather and she was placed in the main core. I really don't see how the decision to make her a child was any more simple than one to make her an adult, I mean, aside from as a creative allusion to another work.

Originally Posted by Orri:
“Thanks for pointing out that you are aware of the various "Agenda" threads in the past, which would indicate that you've been following this group for some time, and that your first post in your current incarnation may not have been your first post here.

And for what it's worth a "Gay Agenda" where it entails giving a high profile to gay issues and raising gay awareness sometimes to the detriment of the stories is not advocating breaking the law.
The word Paedophilia may have roots in classical language, but it's meaning involves the having sexual intercourse with meaning of the word love, rather than more innocent and acceptable versions as far as children are concerned.
Given that children of the age being included in the show exist in real life, it's a bit strange that up until recently they didn't exist in Dr Who, especially as they are some of the target audience of the show.”

Nope. First incarnation. Thing is, you don't have to be registered to view threads. On the subject of children being the target audience of Doctor who, this is partly why I choose to focus on Moffat, because his episodes generally aren't targeted toward children, so it's partly strange that if he was returning to the creepy roots of Doctor Who that he wouldn't also avoid using children in such episodes, or at least some of them. So far he's avoiding using children in one.

As far as paedophilia goes, it does not involve sexual activity, not unless you use it in such a sense, and perpetuate that faux meaning. As I said, -Philia is from the Greek word Philia which is specifically brotherly love, not Eros, which would be sexual. The inclusion of sexual meaning into paedophilia is something that has been encouraged by the taboids, so now a days it can be used in both senses, even though it shouldn't. If you wanted to talk about the unhealthy obsession with children, you would talk about paedomania, but only pedants and people in the psychiatry field would probably even know that.

Again, I digress because the etymology of words is not the point of this thread.
floopy123
14-04-2010
As that song goes

Quote:
“I believe the children are our are future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be”

Whitney Houston song's The Greatest Love Of All. Lyrics by Stephen Moffat.
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